Did Joel Really...? (Spoilers)

[Dauersack]

2 hours ago, EIdain said:

I don't believe Joel to be as evil or bad as many make him out to be. However Joel knew she would willingly give up her life if it meant securing a vaccine (as unlikely as it was to happen). He knew Ellie wanted her life to mean something by being the cure. He willingly says as much to Tommy at the beginning of Pt. 2. She can decide and confirms that it's something that she wanted years later in the scene at the end of the game on Joel's porch.

Another important thing to note is that whilst the player (you or me) may think a vaccine is improbable. Joel didn't, and believed it was viable or at least did at one point in time. He get's very mad at Ellie for running off in the first game, and tells her she's stupid for putting her life at risk.

She wanted it to mean something because she felt like she should have died together with Riley, in her mind she lived on borrowed time and didn't deserve it. She was depressed, had no family, no friends, no real home, no perspective, also she was a teenager and their hormones go wild at this age. You'd be surprised how many teenagers think about suicide a few times while they feel really down, few actually try it but the thought is there for an alarming number. Years later when their lifes have more stability, the hormones are normal and they get some perspective about life, they facepalm about even entertaining the thought. Allowing a depressed and confused teenager to decide over her life is quite questionable if you ask me, there is a reason parents make all the important decisions until kids come of age, but even when she likely would have agreed she was not even asked. They just wanted to murder her without even telling her that the operation would kill her, or that it might be all for naught, which could have influenced her decision, that is pretty messed up if you ask me.

 

Joel had different thoughts about the vaccine, I'd say three in fact. First he either did not believe it or he did not care, Ellie was just cargo he was suppoed to deliver in exchange for a big weapon delivery, it was an exchange of goods. Later he cared about Ellie and him scolding her with the words "do you have any idea what your life means" for running off makes it safe to assume he believed that the vaccine was possible, and while he was having second thoughts about delivering her he was still doing it when she insisted, especially after she made it clear that they can still do things afterwards. Lastly he knew the vaccine was about to happen, but was told by Marlene that Ellie would have to die for a shot at it, which changed his mind. The fact that he was about to get scammed out of his deal, forced out of the building without his equip and would have most likely gotten shot by them did nothing to ease his mind for some reason, and him learning about the vaccine being a long shot and the fireflies crusade to get it being responsible for killing many other children for nothing, made him even more determined. I can't be sure whether Joel was thinking of the vaccine as a potential cure for humanity, but I'd like to think as a former hunter he knows that vaccine ain't gonna make a dent on the worlds problems, can't back that up with lore though.

 

38 minutes ago, EdinhoN said:

I'm really afraid of where TLOU2's plot retcon might have taken this discussion, it can be a potential stain on what TLOU1 has built. Can you please elaborate more? I don't care for TLOU2 spoilers,  have already read a good portion of them.

The fireflies are not even a big topic in the game anymore, they are like a distant memory, getting mentioned a few times by ex members, or the main characters, but never going deeper. You see the surgeon, the guy you have to kill in the first game to save Ellie, being presented as the father of the Abbynator. They changed his skin color, his age, his voice, they gave him a typical "Ima try to save the world, even though I am just one humble man" kind of personality and portray him as a loving father to Abby, because you are supposed to feel bad for Abby and hate Joel. They show the aftermath of Joels rescue of Ellie, trying to be as gnarly as possible with it, and at the end of the game Abby is heading towards a firefly cell after she made contact with them over a radio tower.

There is never any critical discourse over the fact that the fireflies were actual terrorists, or were willing to kill anyone and everyone for even a small chance to find a cure, but the fact the game tried their hardest to make Joel look like a villain makes it pretty clear to me how the writer wants the fireflies to be perceived, as heroes. Neil coming out and saying the vaccine definitely would have worked had they been allowed to murder Ellie also supports that thought. They kept saying it was a long shot in the first game, but later it is supposed to be guaranteed, and some people claim the story was not retconned. Basically the second game was taking out most of the grey shades from the first game, they are going with the simplistic black and white, Fireflies good therefore Abby good, Joel bad and therefore Ellie bad. They even go out of their way trying to make Ellie look bad, sometimes making direct comparisons with Abby to really say "look here, Ellie is a cruel dog killer who curses at them after killing them, but now look at the Abbynator petting and playing with this dog that later gets killed by Ellie". It is the simplest form of viewer manipulation to get them on a new characters side, and no one who actually has his eyes open and his brain switched to on should fall for it.

 

 

Edited July 6, 2020 by Nighcisama

[EdinhoN]

4 minutes ago, Nighcisama said:

She wanted it to mean something because she felt like she should have died together with Riley, in her mind she lived on borrowed time and didn't deserve it. She was depressed, had no family, no friends, no real home, no perspective, also she was a teenager and their hormones go wild at this age. You'd be surprised how many teenagers think about suicide a few times while they feel really down, few actually try it but the thought is there for an alarming number. Years later when their lifes have more stability, the hormones are normal and they get some perspective about life, they facepalm about even entertaining the thought. Allowing a depressed and confused teenager to decide over her life is quite questionable if you ask me, there is a reason parents make all the important decisions until kids come of age, but even when she likely would have agreed she was not even asked. They just wanted to murder her without even telling her that the operation would kill her, or that it might be all for naught, which could have influenced her decision, that is pretty messed up if you ask me.

 

Joel had different thoughts about the vaccine, I'd say three in fact. First he either did not believe it or he did not care, Ellie was just cargo he was suppoed to deliver in exchange for a big weapon delivery, it was an exchange of goods. Later he cared about Ellie and him scolding her with the words "do you have any idea what your life means" for running off makes it safe to assume he believed that the vaccine was possible, and while he was having second thoughts about delivering her he was still doing it when she insisted, especially after she made it clear that they can still do things afterwards. Lastly he knew the vaccine was about to happen, but was told by Marlene that Ellie would have to die for a shot at it, which changed his mind. The fact that he was about to get scammed out of his deal, forced out of the building without his equip and would have most likely gotten shot by them did nothing to ease his mind for some reason, and him learning about the vaccine being a long shot and the fireflies crusade to get it being responsible for killing many other children for nothing, made him even more determined. I can't be sure whether Joel was thinking of the vaccine as a potential cure for humanity, but I'd like to think as a former hunter he knows that vaccine ain't gonna make a dent on the worlds problems, can't back that up with lore though.

 

The fireflies are not even a big topic in the game anymore, they are like a distant memory, getting mentioned a few times by ex members, or the main characters, but never going deeper. You see the surgeon, the guy you have to kill in the first game to save Ellie, being presented as the father of the Abbynator. They changed his skin color, his age, his voice, they gave him a typical "Ima try to save the world, even though I am just one humble man" kind of personality and portray him as a loving father to Abby, because you are supposed to feel bad for Abby and hate Joel. They show the aftermath of Joels rescue of Ellie, trying to be as gnarly as possible with it, and at the end of the game Abby is heading towards a firefly cell after she made contact with them over a radio tower.

There is never any critical discourse over the fact that the fireflies were actual terrorists, or were willing to kill anyone and everyone for even a small chance to find a cure, but the fact the game tried their hardest to make Joel look like a villain makes it pretty clear to me how the writer wants the fireflies to be perceived, as heroes. Neil coming out and saying the vaccine definitely would have worked has they been allowed to murder Ellie also supports that thought. They kept saying it was a long shot in the first game, but later it is supposed to be guaranteed, and some people claim the story was not retconned. Basically the second game was taking out most of the grey shades from the first game, they are going with the simplistic black and white, Fireflies good therefore Abby good, Joel bad and therefore Ellie bad, they go out of their way trying to make even Ellie look bad, sometimes making direct comparisons with Abby to really say "look here, Ellie is a cruel dog killer, look at the Abbynator pet and play with this dog that later gets killed by Ellie". It is the simplest form of viewer manipulation to get them on a new characters side, and no one who actually has his eyes open and his brain switched to on should fall for it.

 

 

That's simply terrible, this story seems overly manipulative.

Why are the Fireflies a "distant memory"? Does that mean that Joel dismantled them at TLOU1's ending singlehandedly? And they were meant to bring the cure to the world lol

I don't like this idealization of Fireflies, they are lame terrorists and it reminds me how radical leftists are glorified in real life (they are FIGHTING for the PEOPLE !!11!!) and radical right is demonized. Oh the double standards...

[EIdain]

7 minutes ago, Nighcisama said:

Years later when their lifes have more stability, the hormones are normal and they get some perspective about life, they facepalm about even entertaining the thought. 

This is were we'll have to agree to disagree I think. The scene on Joel's porch years later in my opinion disproves this because she still wanted it to happen.

But regardless we both agree that Joel didn't doom humanity because a cure wouldn't have solved everything even if the Fireflies were completely altruistic.

[Dauersack]

19 minutes ago, EdinhoN said:

That's simply terrible, this story seems overly manipulative.

Why are the Fireflies a "distant memory"? Does that mean that Joel dismantled them at TLOU1's ending singlehandedly? And they were meant to bring the cure to the world lol

I don't like this idealization of Fireflies, they are lame terrorists and it reminds me how radical leftists are glorified in real life (they are FIGHTING for the PEOPLE !!11!!) and radical right is demonized. Oh the double standards...

Well they are just kinda gone. I mean Marlene said they lost pretty much everything during that last journey to their hideout so Joel appearing with Ellie was like a miracle for her that could have maybe saved them. Instead of a cure, they got most of their leftover soldiers killed, as well as their surgeon, and of course Marlene who was their leader. If you strike the head off of an already dying fanatic group and there is no clear, respected second in command to take over, the most likely outcome is them fracturing into several smaller groups and going their seperate ways. You do not meet any fireflies in the current day, just former fireflies, one of which recognizes Ellie as the girl thats immune, but the fireflies are simply no longer a presence, so you could say that Joel finished them, at least in that area. Given that Abby is now on the way to some fireflies due to surviving her encounter with Ellie in probably the dumbest ending I have ever seen to a story in a videogame, i'd say there are perhaps a few left. This is definitely a setup for a third game because, if there is a third game, you bet that will be about Abby instead of Ellie, as Abby is the embodiment of what a real woman is supposed to look like in Neils mind. I mean, he had his lookalike character bang her for a reason, and go into needless detail for it while Ellie had her scene black screened like you would expect from a game with that age rating, on a Sony owned console at that.

 

18 minutes ago, EIdain said:

This is were we'll have to agree to disagree I think. The scene on Joel's porch years later in my opinion disproves this because she still wanted it to happen.

But regardless we both agree that Joel didn't doom humanity because a cure wouldn't have solved everything even if the Fireflies were completely altruistic.

I guess so. Yeah she still wanted it, she was willing to die and even after Joel told her that it was a death sentence she was ready for it, even mad at him for saving her life. He did not tell her about it being unlikely to work, that they killed a bunch of other kids, and that they were about to kill him. Maybe she would have thought about it differently then, or when some more time has passed (19 is still very young, but she was definitely old enough by then to decide about her life), but the main point for me is that they did not even ask her about it, they just did not care about whether she was ok with it or not, they were fanatics who only had their goals in mind, sacrifices be damned especially if they weren't to ones making them. Getting consent of someone before doing something like this is important, especially from someone you supposedly care about. You could argue that Joel did not ask for her consent to be saved either, but he had her physical well being in mind at least and acted out of parental instinct by that point.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Nighcisama

[DarkHpokinsn]

28 minutes ago, Nighcisama said:

Well they are just kinda gone. I mean Marlene said they lost pretty much everything during that last journey to their hideout so Joel appearing with Ellie was like a miracle for her that could have maybe saved them. Instead of a cure, they got most of their leftover soldiers killed, as well as their surgeon, and of course Marlene who was their leader. If you strike the head off of an already dying fanatic group and there is no clear, respected second in command to take over, the most likely outcome is them fracturing into several smaller groups and going their seperate ways. You do not meet any fireflies in the current day, just former fireflies, one of which recognizes Ellie as the girl thats immune, but the fireflies are simply no longer a presence, so you could say that Joel finished them, at least in that area. Given that Abby is now on the way to some fireflies due to surviving her encounter with Ellie in probably the dumbest ending I have ever seen to a story in a videogame, i'd say there are perhaps a few left. This is definitely a setup for a third game because, if there is a third game, you bet that will be about Abby instead of Ellie, as Abby is the embodiment of what a real woman is supposed to look like in Neils mind. I mean, he had his lookalike character bang her for a reason, and go into needless detail for it while Ellie had her scene black screened like you would expect from a game with that age rating, on a Sony owned console at that.

 

I guess so. Yeah she still wanted it, she was willing to die and even after Joel told her that it was a death sentence she was ready for it, even mad at him for saving her life. He did not tell her about it being unlikely to work, that they killed a bunch of other kids, and that they were about to kill him. Maybe she would have thought about it differently then, or when some more time has passed (19 is still very young, but she was definitely old enough by then to decide about her life), but the main point for me is that they did not even ask her about it, they just did not care about whether she was ok with it or not, they were fanatics who only had their goals in mind, sacrifices be damned especially if they weren't to ones making them. Getting consent of someone before doing something like this is important, especially from someone you supposedly care about. You could argue that Joel did not ask for her consent to be saved either, but he had her physical well being in mind at least and acted out of parental instinct by that point.

Lol dude, not sure where you got the idea that Abbey is Neil’s ideal woman, when the character she had sex with wasn’t even the character that supposedly looks like Neil, not to mention this Character that is a supposed “self insert” is Spanish. Play the game before you talk shit and think you know what’s going on. Also you’re kidding yourself if you think Abbey will be the focus of the next game, Ellie’s story is far from over. 

It’s all a matter of perspective, really. Joel definitely didn’t do a good thing by wiping out more or less a whole group of people. Whether they had the capability to make a vaccine or not. 

Edited July 6, 2020 by DarkHpokinsn

[Dauersack]

40 minutes ago, DarkHpokinsn said:

Lol dude, not sure where you got the idea that Abbey is Neil’s ideal woman, when the character she had sex with wasn’t even the character that supposedly looks like Neil, not to mention this Character that is a supposed “self insert” is Spanish. Also you’re kidding yourself if you think Abbey will be the focus of the next game, Ellie’s story if far from over. 

Lol you are right, guess I saw too many memes with Neils face being shopped over the guy so I mixed it up. My bad, Neils character was the one who spit on Joel, not the one who banged the Abbynator. The character is a cliche of a mexican, an insulting one at that according to some people, but just look at him man, you don't see any resemblance? It is not a clone, but it is kinda weird that he is the one character of the entire francise to have have any similarity to Neil.

Quick google search and looking into the wiki.

I can tell you where I got the idea that Abby is Neils ideal woman. Naughty Dog has shown a tendency to make their women appear more manly recently. It started with Nadine from UC4, who still looked like a woman, just bulky and somehow able to easily beat the crap out of 2 very experienced fighters with a ridiculous body count in a handicap match, never mind that, not the most unrealistic thing about this game. Other characters, like Marlene, were beefed up compared to how they used to look, he also makes some of his womens faces uglier and visibly more withered, Marlene looked like she was on crack in the second game during a flashback. They also do a reverse japan on their character models.

Japan for example does things like increase the boob size of a character, example, a models average chest getting a noticeable size upgrade for the character Quiet from Metal Gear Solid 5, they also make the faces look prettier in many games and generally try to make them look flawless, something Neil himself went on record saying that it "reduces female characters to a lot less than they could be", acting like looking more appealing to the japanese market is a disability in his mind or something. Naughty Dog does the exact opposite, giving the model for Dina a noticeable chest downgrade and beefing up her muscles for her role in The Last Of Us 2. They call size increase sexist and misogynistic, but shrinking someones natural features is somehow ok, probably even empowering for them (somehow?).

 

So they make past characters uglier and bulkier, and they reduce the feminine traits of the women who model for their characters. Given how Neil has talked about women or other games that portray woman before, I think it is safe to say Neils version of the ideal woman is the one that asks him to be the little spoon. The best example of that is Abby. Abby is a cobbled together frankenstein monster creation, and I really do not mean how she looks, I literally mean how exactly the character was created. Glancing at the wiki tells us that they combined her out of THREE PEOPLE. They hired a woman named Laura Bailey for voice and mo-cap, they modeled her body after Colleen Fotsch, a professional athlete, but instead of sticking with that they just took the roided up body and then put a different models (Jocelyn Mettler) face on that body and made it look worse as per tradition.

Can you give me another reason why theres three people for one unmasked and one dimensional character? Most characters are done by one person, some by two if look or voice do not both match the character in question, but 3 makes no sense for a non masked character, especially not one for just the face. If you ask me, they knew exactly what they wanted, they took what they deemed to be the ideal qualities for a new female protagonist out of several models and combined it into Abby, this is their ideal female specimen. That is why Abby gets everything she wants and is allowed to have her revenge and escape for a happy end in this "revenge bad" story, that is why she wins against Ellie (first fight) and cripples her (final fight) even after she is malnourished and tortured to exhaustion, that is why Abby gets all positive attention while Ellie gets portrayed as a villain for most of the game.

 

Ellies story is not over, but it might as well be, they made her unlikeable over the course of the game, downright stupid at the end. They have given no hints to where Ellie is going, but they told us exactly where the Abbynator is headed. Ellie is all alone, crippled and aimless, Abby is in friendly company with a clear goal, which do you think is a more likely candidate for a sequel?

 

Edited July 6, 2020 by Nighcisama

[DarkHpokinsn]

On 7/6/2020 at 4:06 PM, Nighcisama said:

Lol you are right, guess I saw too many memes with Neils face being shopped over the guy so I mixed it up. My bad, Neils character was the one who spit on Joel, not the one who banged the Abbynator. The character is a cliche of a mexican, an insulting one at that according to some people, but just look at him man, you don't see any resemblance? It is not a clone, but it is kinda weird that he is the one character of the entire francise to have have any similarity to Neil.

Quick google search and looking into the wiki.

I can tell you where I got the idea that Abby is Neils ideal woman. Naughty Dog has shown a tendency to make their women appear more manly recently. It started with Nadine from UC4, who still looked like a woman, just bulky and somehow able to easily beat the crap out of 2 very experienced fighters with a ridiculous body count in a handicap match, never mind that, not the most unrealistic thing about this game. Other characters, like Marlene, were beefed up compared to how they used to look, he also makes some of his womens faces uglier and visibly more withered, Marlene looked like she was on crack in the second game during a flashback. They also do a reverse japan on their character models.

Japan for example does things like increase the boob size of a character, example, a models average chest getting a noticeable size upgrade for the character Quiet from Metal Gear Solid 5, they also make the faces look prettier in many games and generally try to make them look flawless, something Neil himself went on record saying that it "reduces female characters to a lot less than they could be", acting like looking more appealing to the japanese market is a disability in his mind or something. Naughty Dog does the exact opposite, giving the model for Dina a noticeable chest downgrade and beefing up her muscles for her role in The Last Of Us 2. They call size increase sexist and misogynistic, but shrinking someones natural features is somehow ok, probably even empowering for them (somehow?).

 

So they make past characters uglier and bulkier, and they reduce the feminine traits of the women who model for their characters. Given how Neil has talked about women or other games that portray woman before, I think it is safe to say Neils version of the ideal woman is the one that asks him to be the little spoon. The best example of that is Abby. Abby is a cobbled together frankenstein monster creation, and I really do not mean how she looks, I literally mean how exactly the character was created. Glancing at the wiki tells us that they combined her out of THREE PEOPLE. They hired a woman named Laura Bailey for voice and mo-cap, they modeled her body after Colleen Fotsch, a professional athlete, but instead of sticking with that they just took the roided up body and then put a different models (Jocelyn Mettler) face on that body and made it look worse as per tradition.

Can you give me another reason why theres three people for one unmasked and one dimensional character? Most characters are done by one person, some by two if look or voice do not both match the character in question, but 3 makes no sense for a non masked character, especially not one for just the face. If you ask me, they knew exactly what they wanted, they took what they deemed to be the ideal qualities for a new female protagonist out of several models and combined it into Abby, this is their ideal female specimen. That is why Abby gets everything she wants and is allowed to have her revenge and escape for a happy end in this "revenge bad" story, that is why she wins against Ellie (first fight) and cripples her (final fight) even after she is malnourished and tortured to exhaustion, that is why Abby gets all positive attention while Ellie gets portrayed as a villain for most of the game.

 

Ellies story is not over, but it might as well be, they made her unlikeable over the course of the game, downright stupid at the end. They have given no hints to where Ellie is going, but they told us exactly where the Abbynator is headed. Ellie is all alone, crippled and aimless, Abby is in friendly company with a clear goal, which do you think is a more likely candidate for a sequel?

 

I mean I disagree, her letting Abby go wasn’t stupid, it was the right thing to do at that point. all this stuff about the character design doesn’t mean it’s his ideal woman, I mean seriously man, you can design characters to look however you want, I doubt they tried to make them “more ugly” that says more about you then the devs. you’re looking to hard into it. And no I don’t think Manny is a stereotype at all, I don’t see a resemblance except the hair, and Niel isn’t the only man that wears his hair like that, nor does his face even look like Niels. Seriously Man, there’s something wrong with you, you’re looking way too deep into something that’s not even that deep.

Edited July 8, 2020 by DarkHpokinsn

[JoaLoft]

50 minutes ago, nrs1nrs1 said:

but why is that Joel's decision to make? What gives him the right to decide that? Ellie clearly wanted her life to be worth something by the end of the journey, and regardless of how effective or plausible a vaccine might or might not have been, that wasn't part of Joel's reasoning for why he did it. 

 

Because Ellie suffers from survivor's guilt, and is not thinking straight. She sees only one outcome. Only one door seems open to her, when in reality there is still a lot more that life can offer, even in a post-apocalyptic world. Joel points this out at the very end of the first game:

 

"I struggled for a long time with survivin'. No matter what, you keep finding something to fight for."

 

Joel's reasoning as to why he did it, has to do with the bond he created with Ellie. The way he runs with Ellie in his arms, is very reminiscent of day one of the outbreak, when he lost Sarah. He had her in his arms too. Ellie had become like a daughter to him, and he was not willing to lose another daughter. You could argue whether or not Joel was being selfish at that point, but hearing the cost versus the benefit of trying to develop a cure, shows that Joel does also see the bigger picture than Ellie, who looks at it from a different perspective.

 

He found it was necessary to save her against her own will. That's exactly what he also says to Tommy at the first cutscene of The Last of Us Part II:

 

"I saved her."

 

We can agree to disagree about Joel's motives and if they were justified. From my point of view, however, he did the right thing. If presented with the choice, I'd make the same call.

[Dauersack]

23 minutes ago, DarkHpokinsn said:

I mean I disagree, her letting Abby go wasn’t stupid, it was the right thing to do at that. And all this stuff about the character design doesn’t mean it’s his ideal woman, I mean seriously man, you can design characters to look however you want, you’re looking to hard into it. And no I don’t think Manny is a stereotype at all, I don’t see a resemblance except the hair, and Niel isn’t the only man that wears his hair like that, nor does his face even look like Niels. Seriously Man, there’s something wrong with you, you’re looking way too deep into something that’s not even that deep.

Letting Abby go would not have been stupid had Ellie done it while she still had a family, all her fingers, and dozens of murder victims less on her track record. Letting her go seconds before killing her was stupid, and that is not up for debate, that is a fact. She killed EVERYONE she could on her way to Abby, everyone who was there when Joel died, countless people who had nothing to do with it, a pregnant woman, even Abbys dog, only to then spare the one person she actually wanted to kill? Over a flashback of Joel, a man who killed many more people for FAR less? Thats like losing both your hands to frostbite while trying to reach the summit of Mount Everest, because it is your one big goal in life to make it up there, then standing 5 minutes away from the summit and thinking "nah, reaching the summit is bad" and then turn around, meaning everything you lost was for nothing and you will regret it for the rest of your life, because you likely will not get another chance.

 

They have the right to make the characters look however they want, don't get me wrong, but they publicly shit on games like MGS5 for doing exactly that, making characters look like they wanted. This tells me they put high value on this topic, otherwise why would they publicly attack another company for "doing it wrong". This means whatever they do with their female characters is not done lightly, but highly intentional, and they consistently went for the same things, uglier, manlier or more aggressive, in case of Abby all of the above.

 

Are you a Mexican? People have complained about Manny being an annoying mexican stereotype, using spanish words like "pendejo" over and over again, which is a pretty negative cliche and hard to deny. He reminds me of Alberto Del Rio, speaking like an overly aggressive thug and always having to throw words from his native language into it. Even AngryJoe, who, as far as I know, has some mexican roots, was pretty vocal about how much that pissed him off. I am not personally offended by it either, but I am no Mexican and generally hard to offend with negative cliches, and I just know Naughty Dog would be the first to point the finger at other companies if they had delivered something like this.

 

Maybe I am not looking too deep, maybe you are just too lazy to put your brain in motion and read between the lines a bit? I have seen some pretty absurd reaches in discussions about this game in both directions, but this is nothing like it. This is backed up by evidence, direct comparisons and what the writer publicly says while speaking for the company. I don't mind most of it either, don't get me wrong, what do I care if Abby looks like the Terminator, there are other equally unrealistic things in the game and I would have hated the character no matter how she looked due to how everything was written, it is just the hypocrisy of Naughty Dog that pisses me off. The double standards they are applying, the complete disrespect shown to the customers intelligence with their false advertisement at a time when everyone knew Abby was there and Joel would be gone long before the game had even picked up some steam. You probably don't know anything about that.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Nighcisama

[DarkHpokinsn]

41 minutes ago, Nighcisama said:

Letting Abby go would not have been stupid had Ellie done it while she still had a family, all her fingers, and dozens of murder victims less on her track record. Letting her go seconds before killing her was stupid, and that is not up for debate, that is a fact. She killed EVERYONE she could on her way to Abby, everyone who was there when Joel died, countless people who had nothing to do with it, a pregnant woman, even Abbys dog, only to then spare the one person she actually wanted to kill? Over a flashback of Joel, a man who killed many more people for FAR less? Thats like losing both your hands to frostbite while trying to reach the summit of Mount Everest, because it is your one big goal in life to make it up there, then standing 5 minutes away from the summit and thinking "nah, reaching the summit is bad" and then turn around, meaning everything you lost was for nothing and you will regret it for the rest of your life, because you likely will not get another chance.

 

They have the right to make the characters look however they want, don't get me wrong, but they publicly shit on games like MGS5 for doing exactly that, making characters look like they wanted. This tells me they put high value on this topic, otherwise why would they publicly attack another company for "doing it wrong". This means whatever they do with their female characters is not done lightly, but highly intentional, and they consistently went for the same things, uglier, manlier or more aggressive, in case of Abby all of the above.

 

Are you a Mexican? People have complained about Manny being an annoying mexican stereotype, using spanish words like "pendejo" over and over again, which is a pretty negative cliche and hard to deny. He reminds me of Alberto Del Rio, speaking like an overly aggressive thug and always having to throw words from his native language into it. Even AngryJoe, who, as far as I know, has some mexican roots, was pretty vocal about how much that pissed him off. I am not personally offended by it either, but I am no Mexican and generally hard to offend with negative cliches, and I just know Naughty Dog would be the first to point the finger at other companies if they had delivered something like this.

 

Maybe I am not looking too deep, maybe you are just too lazy to put your brain in motion and read between the lines a bit? I have seen some pretty absurd reaches in discussions about this game in both directions, but this is nothing like it. This is backed up by evidence, direct comparisons and what the writer publicly says while speaking for the company. I don't mind most of it either, don't get me wrong, what do I care if Abby looks like the Terminator, there are other equally unrealistic things in the game and I would have hated the character no matter how she looked due to how everything was written, it is just the hypocrisy of Naughty Dog that pisses me off. The double standards they are applying, the complete disrespect shown to the customers intelligence with their false advertisement at a time when everyone knew Abby was there and Joel would be gone long before the game had even picked up some steam. You probably don't know anything about that.

That’s the point of the game moron, Ellie sacrificed everything for something that wasn’t even worth it, because it wasn’t about revenge, it’s about forgiveness. I swear it’s like you’re thinking In such a dumb way. Who picked on MGS5? No one. I just don’t see what you’re talking about man, there’s nothing particularly “ugly” about any of the characters in the game, it’s funny how you think you know how the devs designed the characters, keep pretending like you know, because it makes you look stupid. Lol nothing you’ve said is “backed up by evidence” it’s shit that either didn’t and was completely made up, or exaggerated to the extreme. You’re definitely looking too deeply into these things, you haven’t played it so you don’t know shit. Abby doesn’t even look like “The Terminator”, there’s one of your exaggerations. ND showed no disrespect, nor do they have “double standards”, it’s all In your head man. There’s no “false advertising” either, it’s called being misleading, ND does that with every game so no one has any idea what’s gonna happen, you should know this by now. I suppose you would prefer they spoil everything in trailers? I know more about this game then you just by virtue of having played it, so you stop being so ignorant and ridiculous. Also stop responding with these huge paragraphs, I have a life to live. 

Edited July 6, 2020 by DarkHpokinsn

[Spacey_Dweeb]

I don't think Joel doomed mankind either. However, for the fun of it, I want to play devils advocate. 

 

1) You correctly state that fungi can't be vaccinated against IRL. The closest we have to this situation is bacteriophages. These are basically viruses that are reproducing themselves within bacteria. Making them more resistant to medicines etc However, they are still viruses. Since people in TLOUs are getting infected by spores, I think we can assume we have like a fungiophage or fungus infected by a virus. This might mean that it still behaves as a viral infection and therefore you may be able to get antibodies from a vaccine. Ellie's mutation might also mean that she doesn't necessarily have antibodies, but some other type of inhibitor in her body. You can reverse a narcotic overdose by using a drug like Narcan, because it has a preferential binding to receptor sites and literally kicks other molecules off so it can fit in place. The drug is still in their system but loses the physiological effect that puts a user at risk. So Ellie might simply have something that takes priority and the cordyceps within her body can't find anywhere to latch onto and replicate itself and eventually is either metabolized or cleared from her body through natural processes like urination.

 

For your second point. Society didnt immediately fall. Trained medical personnel would be highly valued, protected, and have plenty of opportunity to practice medicine and nearly all medical research would be focused on this specific disease. Just look at the real life race for a COVID-19 vaccine. In the 20 years following the outbreak, I think he could easily have expanded his medical knowledge and be an authority on the pathophysiology of Cordyceps. Enough so, that he could recognize what exactly mutated. I would still argue that there was no guarantee that the vaccine was a sure-fire thing and all the needed was Ellie's brain and humanity is saved. I believe that man could have the education and expertise. 

 

The Fireflies as an org should have been able to protect the specific equipment that they needed, especially as they were basically the last known faction working on a cure. Who else would be interested in it? They did have established labs and such across the country. They occupied the University of Colorado and as Joel went through there, there was plenty of evidence that they were packing and moving equipment and not just abandoning the area. They were also set up within a hospital where a theoretical medical research lab would be entirely possible to exist. 

 

Points four and five should be addressed together. Mass production wouldn't need to be immediate. Once they could replicate whatever it is that Ellie has on the small scale and protect themselves and their troops, The amount of risk they face goes down heavily. They then could move into obtaining the infrastructure for mass production. Recruiting people will probably be a lot easier if you can provide vaccination for the individual if they sign up to serve the Fireflies. They'd have a work force quite quickly. They world doesn't even have the infrastructure to communicate effectively and you're not going to offer what you don't have. They'd vaccinate themselves first and build up a small stock pile. Then they would likely have the chance to send out philanthropists and plant the seeds out in different communities and bring in small groups at a time. Despite the altruistic idea of curing the horrible disease, you're absolutely right. They are not simply going to be shipping off free crates of the shit. Philanthropist would be a deadly/risky job. The Fireflies would need to keep control of the supply because of the incredible demand and of course the people involved would want to remain in power. They would recruit those hardened survivors as security and protection. The underlying rule would be toe our line if you want the vaccine. Eventually, the word would be widespread and people will be coming to them and they won't even have to work for it. At the end of the day, the Fireflies would be a major world power. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dauersack]

3 hours ago, DarkHpokinsn said:

That’s the point of the game moron, Ellie sacrificed everything for something that wasn’t even worth it, because it wasn’t about revenge, it’s about forgiveness. I swear it’s like you’re thinking In such a dumb way.

Seems like you feel inferior with your arguments, which is not surprising given how laughable your opinion is to anyone who uses his head a little. You are wrong btw, it is like logic is a foreign concept for you. Let me explain it to you kiddo: To realize that a sacrifice was not worth it, you first need to receive what you sacrificed something for, in this case, killing Abby. Has she killed Abby and then found herself alone, frustrated and unfulfilled, THEN you could have made that argument. She sacrificed everything and then backed out, of course it was not worth it then, because she sacrificed it for NOTHING, which means it was worthless by default due to her not gaining anything. That is what people mean with bad writing, obviously it is not bad enough for you to realize something is wrong, maybe you are new to this whole story thing?

3 hours ago, DarkHpokinsn said:

Who picked on MGS5? No one.

Pretty much every gaming news site, game journalists, even Neil Druckmann himself used Quiet from MGS5 as a bad example of horrible female design, among a few others. Not surprised you do not know that, you seem very ignorant on the whole topic to be honest, maybe educate yourself before partaking in a discussion about it? It takes 5 minutes of using google to fact check what I am talking about, are you unwilling or unable to use google? I can send you a link that does it for you if you feel overwhelmed by the complexity of this search engine btw.

 

3 hours ago, DarkHpokinsn said:

I just don’t see what you’re talking about man, there’s nothing particularly “ugly” about any of the characters in the game, it’s funny how you think you know how the devs designed the characters, keep pretending like you know, because it makes you look stupid.

So you are ignorant on the topic, AND blind. You don't have it easy I guess. And yes I do know how they designed the characters, because I can see who was the model for the characters and what they changed about them, takes 1 minute to check, theres even direct comparisons doing it for you. If someone looks stupid here it is you, for failing to do something my 8 year old niece could do, typing a short sentence into google.

 

3 hours ago, DarkHpokinsn said:

Lol nothing you’ve said is “backed up by evidence” it’s shit that either didn’t and was completely made up, or exaggerated to the extreme.

Once again, just because you are blind and delusional does not magically change the facts kiddo. I have pictures showing the things I am talking about, archived posts of Druckmann saying the things I claim he said, there is a wiki telling you things, you know? If you do not get paid for shilling at this point then you are doing something wrong, one should never humiliate himself for free.

 

3 hours ago, DarkHpokinsn said:

ND showed no disrespect, nor do they have “double standards”, it’s all In your head man. There’s no “false advertising” either, it’s called being misleading, ND does that with every game so no one has any idea what’s gonna happen, you should know this by now. I suppose you would prefer they spoil everything in trailers? I know more about this game then you just by virtue of having played it, so you stop being so ignorant and ridiculous. Also stop responding with these huge paragraphs, I have a life to live. 

If my replies are too complicated for you and require so much time to read that they stop you from living your life, maybe take a step back and realize this whole public discussion thing maybe is a few steps above your paygrade, as is the use of your eyeballs, proper arguments, and obviously the use of google as well, no shame in admitting it.

 

In your mind, shitting on japanese devs for changing the model to appeal more to them, while at the same time drastically changing the model of a character to make them more appealing to themselves and patting themselves on the back for it is not a double standard? Complaining about how sexist it is to show women in bikinis for volleyball games while also showing one of their characters being all tits out and getting penetrated from behind is not a double standard? Either you do not know what double standard means or you are delusional.

False advertisement was showing Joel in scenes he was not in, acting like he was alive for the majority of the game, then switching his scenes with other characters. Since you have proven that reading and looking for things is too hard for you, here is the video showing you an example:

Theres more, but that should be enough for anyone to realize that you have no idea what you are talking about. Next you gonna tell me how not showing a single pic or scene, or mention, of one of the two protagonists is not a bullshit move to pull, right?

You must have played the game while under the influence on some mystery substances, because you are so wrong about everything it is laughable. Btw the topic originally was about Joel, not that I expect anything out of you at this point, but any thoughts on the actual topic or did you just come here, completely ignorant and unprepared, because you enjoy being laughed at?

Edited July 7, 2020 by Nighcisama

[NathanielJohn]

deleted 

Edited July 6, 2020 by NathanielJohn
Deleting, not worth it.

[Dauersack]

12 minutes ago, NathanielJohn said:

Why am I not surprised that the person in this thread who has the strongest negative opinions of TLoU2 in this thread doesn’t even have it on his profile?

 

You keep getting your “educated” opinions from Google and reading about the game. The rest of us are going to get ours from playing it.

I have watched a full let's play of this game, a story driven game, so I know as much as someone who has played it, or do you wanna tell me that shooting some random blokes with a bow in between cutscenes instead of watching someone do it gives a much deeper insight on the games story? The information of this game is conveyed via cutscenes and some ingame text, so anyone who has seen the cutscenes and read the text has the same information. I did one better by actually watching someone suffer through the game, so you can keep your pathetic attempt of acting like your take on the topic, that you haven't even properly posted here, is somehow more credible. I still use google to access more information than the game provides, things like comments from the devs for example, information about how it was made, comparisons between certain things.

The fact you even think it makes a difference for this game whether it was played or watched already proves you are unable to form the thoughts required for a discussion about such a topic, let alone actually contribute anything of value, otherwise you would have done it. But good for you to still post, even though you have nothing to add, you get a bronze participation trophy from me. There it is, have fun with it buddy.

 

@spacey_dweeb

 

46 minutes ago, spacey_dweeb said:

1) -snip-useful information about how a vaccine might end up working

Some pretty good points, I haven't looked at it from that perspective. You know if that was used as an ingame explanation for why a potential vaccine would have worked, I would have bought into it. Makes sense.

46 minutes ago, spacey_dweeb said:

For your second point. Society didnt immediately fall. Trained medical personnel would be highly valued, protected, and have plenty of opportunity to practice medicine and nearly all medical research would be focused on this specific disease. Just look at the real life race for a COVID-19 vaccine. In the 20 years following the outbreak, I think he could easily have expanded his medical knowledge and be an authority on the pathophysiology of Cordyceps. Enough so, that he could recognize what exactly mutated. I would still argue that there was no guarantee that the vaccine was a sure-fire thing and all the needed was Ellie's brain and humanity is saved. I believe that man could have the education and expertise.

I mean he would have started pretty young to start when civilization was still going strong given that he looks like he is in his late 30s, maybe early 40s, but yeah technically possible. He is dealing with something new though, and given how rapidly society was hit by it I doubt they went too deep into an organized attempt at looking into it, so most of the knowledge would have been self taught by a small group. Even assuming he knows a lot, and gained enough experience from dissecting kids, he did not exactly strike me as super confident in himself during the flashbacks. I can buy into him doing a good job, or just getting lucky and getting that vaccine, but then we get to the bigger problems.

 

46 minutes ago, spacey_dweeb said:

The Fireflies as an org should have been able to protect the specific equipment that they needed, especially as they were basically the last known faction working on a cure. Who else would be interested in it? They did have established labs and such across the country. They occupied the University of Colorado and as Joel went through there, there was plenty of evidence that they were packing and moving equipment and not just abandoning the area. They were also set up within a hospital where a theoretical medical research lab would be entirely possible to exist.

The fireflies were dying. When first meeting Marlene Joel mocked Marlene for getting basically wiped out by the military, suspecting there might be no one left to pay them on their way to the first goal poast. All they ever find until they reach the finish line are dead fireflies, Marlene herself said they lost pretty much everything. They were no longer able to do anything big, and other factions were out for their blood, especially the military, because they acted like a terror group, blowing shit up not caring who gets hit by the explosions. I have no doubt they might have been able to produce some of the vaccine, provided the sample leads to that and the ressources required available, but then we run into all the other road blocks. Mass production and distribution problems, the need of time and test subjects to make sure it works and is not dangerous, distrust from others, potential war over the vaccine, infected still being a massive threat...I just fail to see how this would have ended up benefitting humanity all that much, let alone save it.

 

You make some valid point how these things could work out in ideal scenarios, but I doubt they had the time and patience left. A single man messed them up, an armed group attacking them would have been their end, same with a infected herd, or rival factions wanting to snuff them out for good after everything they did. We do not know how well supplied they were, they wanted to scam Joel out of his weapon delivery so that hints towards not good enough to withstand much more. I roll with your thought for the sake of the argument.

Had they actually managed to survive, get the vaccine and use it to gain more power and influence, while also somehow avoiding the military to start an extermination campaign to stop them getting powerful again, it still would only be somewhat of a happy end for them, not the world. The world would still be fucked, how many people in this game died because of breathing in spores, 2? 3? I can only remember 2 to be honest, all the others were ripped apart by clickers or killed by other humans, and that vaccine is just one more reason for people to start large scale fights over something. The question was about whether Joel doomed humanity as a whole though, not just the fireflies, so them prospering in an ideal scenario does not change much to me because, whether intentional or unintentional, and with how rarely the spores appear and how easy they are to handle with a simple mask everyone seems to have in his pocket, they are simply nowhere near enough of a threat for the vaccine to change much. A vaccine would have saved someone like Sam because he was only scratched, but most of the death scenes are deep bites to the neck, that is damn near impossible to survive in the field. Am I, in your mind, perhaps overlooking something that the vaccine brings to the table that could help against the bigger threats?

 

You are making good points and contribute to the topic, you actually make me think about different perspectives. I wish certain other users were able to do that more.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Nighcisama

[DarkHpokinsn]

1 hour ago, Nighcisama said:

Seems like you feel inferior with your arguments, which is not surprising given how laughable your opinion is to anyone who uses his head a little. You are wrong btw, it is like logic is a foreign concept for you. Let me explain it to you kiddo: To realize that a sacrifice was not worth it, you first need to receive what you sacrificed something for, in this case, killing Abby. Has she killed Abby and then found herself alone, frustrated and unfulfilled, THEN you could have made that argument. She sacrificed everything and then backed out, of course it was not worth it then, because she sacrificed it for NOTHING, which means it was worthless by default due to her not gaining anything. That is what people mean with bad writing, obviously it is not bad enough for you to realize something is wrong, maybe you are new to this whole story thing?

Pretty much every gaming news site, game journalists, even Neil Druckmann himself used Quiet from MGS5 as a bad example of horrible female design, among a few others. Not surprised you do not know that, you seem very ignorant on the whole topic to be honest, maybe educate yourself before partaking in a discussion about it? It takes 5 minutes of using google to fact check what I am talking about, are you unwilling or unable to use google? I can send you a link that does it for you if you feel overwhelmed by the complexity of this search engine btw.

 

So you are ignorant on the topic, AND blind. You don't have it easy I guess. And yes I do know how they designed the characters, because I can see who was the model for the characters and what they changed about them, takes 1 minute to check, theres even direct comparisons doing it for you. If someone looks stupid here it is you, for failing to do something my 8 year old niece could do, typing a short sentence into google.

 

Once again, just because you are blind and delusional does not magically change the facts kiddo. I have pictures showing the things I am talking about, archived posts of Druckmann saying the things I claim he said, there is a wiki telling you things, you know? If you do not get paid for shilling at this point then you are doing something wrong, one should never humiliate himself for free.

 

If my replies are too complicated for you and require so much time to read that they stop you from living your life, maybe take a step back and realize this whole public discussion thing maybe is a few steps above your paygrade, as is the use of your eyes, argumuments, and obviously the use of google.

 

In your mind, shitting on japanese devs for changing the model to appeal more to them, while at the same time drastically changing the model of a character to make them more appealing to themselves and patting themselves on the back for it is not a double standard? Complaining about how sexist it is to show women in bikinis for volleyball games while also showing one of their characters being all tits out and getting penetrated from behind is not a double standard? Either you do not know what the word means or you are actually delusional.

False advertisement was showing Joel in scenes he was not in, acting like he was alive for the majority of the game, then switching his scenes with other characters. Since you have proven that reading and looking for things is too hard for you, here is the video showing you an example:

Theres more, but that should be enough for anyone to realize that you have no idea what you are talking about. Next you gonna tell me how not showing a single pic or scene, or mention, of one of the two protagonists is not a bullshit move to pull, right?

You must have played the game while under the influence on some mystery substances, because you are so wrong about everything it is laughable. Btw the topic originally was about Joel, not that I expect anything out of you at this point, but any thoughts on the actual topic or did you just come here, completely ignorant and unprepared, because you enjoy being laughed at?

Lol at the reflecting, you seem like you’re the one that doesn’t know what your talking about, no one ever said quiet was “bad game design” good lord man, stop making shit up. It’s funny cause you think you’re right and nobody else is, when it’s you that doesn’t understand shit. “Ignorant and unprepared” you say, as you can’t prove any of the stupid shitty claims you make, When you say “google it” that means you don’t have shit. Have fun in your delusional hatred of ND and Last of Us 2. Fucking punk hah.

1 hour ago, Nighcisama said:

I have watched a full let's play of this game, a story driven game, so I know as much as someone who has played it, or do you wanna tell me that shooting some random blokes with a bow in between cutscenes instead of watching someone do it gives a much deeper insight on the games story? The information of this game is conveyed via cutscenes and some ingame text, so anyone who has seen the cutscenes and read the text has the same information. I did one better by actually watching someone suffer through the game, so you can keep your pathetic attempt of acting like your take on the topic, that you haven't even properly posted here, is somehow more credible. I still use google to access more information than the game provides, things like comments from the devs for example, information about how it was made, comparisons between certain things.

The fact you even think it makes a difference for this game whether it was played or watched already proves you are unable to form the thoughts required for a discussion about such a topic, let alone actually contribute anything of value, otherwise you would have done it. But good for you to still post, even though you have nothing to add, you get a bronze participation trophy from me. There it is, have fun with it buddy.

 

@spacey_dweeb

 

Some pretty good points, I haven't looked at it from that perspective. You know if that was used as an ingame explanation for why a potential vaccine would have worked, I would have bought into it. Makes sense.

I mean he would have started pretty young to start when civilization was still going strong given that he looks like he is in his late 30s, maybe early 40s, but yeah technically possible. He is dealing with something new though, and given how rapidly society was hit by it I doubt they went too deep into an organized attempt at looking into it, so most of the knowledge would have been self taught by a small group. Even assuming he knows a lot, and gained enough experience from dissecting kids, he did not exactly strike me as super confident in himself during the flashbacks. I can buy into him doing a good job, or just getting lucky and getting that vaccine, but then we get to the bigger problems.

 

The fireflies were dying. When first meeting Marlene Joel mocked Marlene for getting basically wiped out by the military, suspecting there might be no one left to pay them on their way to the first goal poast. All they ever find until they reach the finish line are dead fireflies, Marlene herself said they lost pretty much everything. They were no longer able to do anything big, and other factions were out for their blood, especially the military, because they acted like a terror group, blowing shit up not caring who gets hit by the explosions. I have no doubt they might have been able to produce some of the vaccine, provided the sample leads to that and the ressources required available, but then we run into all the other road blocks. Mass production and distribution problems, the need of time and test subjects to make sure it works and is not dangerous, distrust from others, potential war over the vaccine, infected still being a massive threat...I just fail to see how this would have ended up benefitting humanity all that much, let alone save it.

 

You make some valid point how these things could work out in ideal scenarios, but I doubt they had the time and patience left. A single man messed them up, an armed group attacking them would have been their end, same with a infected herd, or rival factions wanting to snuff them out for good after everything they did. We do not know how well supplied they were, they wanted to scam Joel out of his weapon delivery so that hints towards not good enough to withstand much more. I roll with your thought for the sake of the argument.

Had they actually managed to survive, get the vaccine and use it to gain more power and influence, while also somehow avoiding the military to start an extermination campaign to stop them getting powerful again, it still would only be somewhat of a happy end for them, not the world. The world would still be fucked, how many people in this game died because of breathing in spores, 2? 3? I can only remember 2 to be honest, all the others were ripped apart by clickers or killed by other humans, and that vaccine is just one more reason for people to start large scale fights over something. The question was about whether Joel doomed humanity as a whole though, not just the fireflies, so them prospering in an ideal scenario does not change much to me because, whether intentional or unintentional, and with how rarely the spores appear and how easy they are to handle with a simple mask everyone seems to have in his pocket, they are simply nowhere near enough of a threat for the vaccine to change much. A vaccine would have saved someone like Sam because he was only scratched, but most of the death scenes are deep bites to the neck, that is damn near impossible to survive in the field. Am I, in your mind, perhaps overlooking something that the vaccine brings to the table that could help against the bigger threats?

 

You are making good points and contribute to the topic, you actually make me think about different perspectives. I wish certain other users were able to do that more.

Well, if you had any proof for your ridiculous statements I would.

There’s no “bad writing” In the game, just people that don’t understand it. Oh and misleading In the advertising is not “false advertising” so stop saying that stupid shit. ND always does that with their games and there’s no reason to stop now. 

Edited July 7, 2020 by DarkHpokinsn

[DarkHpokinsn]

Oh and misleading In the advertising is not “false advertising” so stop saying that stupid shit. ND always does that with their games and there’s no reason to stop now. 

[Dauersack]

1 hour ago, DarkHpokinsn said:

Lol at the reflecting, you seem like you’re the one that doesn’t know what your talking about, no one ever said quiet was “bad game design” good lord man, stop making shit up. It’s funny cause you think you’re right and nobody else is, when it’s you that doesn’t understand shit. “Ignorant and unprepared” you say, as you can’t prove any of the stupid shitty claims you make, When you say “google it” that means you don’t have shit. Have fun in your delusional hatred of ND and Last of Us 2. Fucking punk hah.

No, genius, it literally means you can type it into google and find tweets of him talking about the matter, and a video of Neil Druckmann showing a picture of several female characters, including Quiet, and then going on a rant about how problematic these characters are in his mind, that they are marginalizing women and reduce them to less than they can be. Wanna see the video and articles about said video? Since you have proven that this is too complicated of a task for you to do without your caretaker holding your hand, allow me to do it for you, I want no one to say that I do not take care of socities most unfortunate people.

This site here was invented for people like you, it types things into google for you, it even shows you step by step how you'd have to do it yourself if you ever get ambitious enough to dedicate your braincells to a google search of your own. It is in german though, but with reading not being your strong suit that should not make a difference, as it is shown as well: https://de.lmgtfy.com/?q=neil+druckmann+female+representation

Now try to follow me here. Focus, you can do it. You gotta follow this link, then the site will do the google search for you that you can't manage to do on your own, but you gotta click on the google search button manually after it typed everything in for you, that much it expects of you. So, one click, can you manage that, little one? If not, ask someone around you for help, because I can't make it simpler for you than that.

 

Regarding the nonsensical rest of your reply... Real talk now. I mean this without irony, but i am sure you do not have the brain capacity to even understand the meanings of the words you are trying to have a discussion about. I don't even mean this as an insult, you are just not made for topics that require some thought, you have proven as much, and that is fine, one can't be great at everything, I am a really bad singer for example. What I am saying is, I can't break concepts like bad and good writing down enough for you to understand why the story in question has bad writing, I'd have a better chance of teaching it to my (by now) dead pet bird, so don't be surprised I won't even try anymore. The writing is pretty damn bad, I could write a ridiculously long post about everything I think is wrong with it, and people smarter and more dedicated than me have dissected this poor excuse of a story even more than I'd ever could, it is all out there. Try to find a video for it and reduce the speed to 0.5, watch 2-3 minutes at a time, make many notes and maybe you can get some of the points made in these videos, you could even use google yourself to find them, or send me a pm so i can do it for you again if it is too much for you. I won't bother with you anymore in this topic from now on because i'd feel bad to further pick on someone like you, and it is not leading anywhere either for obvious reasons.

 

Now if you don't mind, there might be people here who actually have what it takes to bring this discussion forward, some great efforts have been made, and we wouldn't want it to get closed, so send me your next embarrassement per pm if you don't mind.

 

-------------------

 

Back on topic. What I haven't really seen getting mentioned anywhere in any discussion about the first or second game i have followed, is a thought that just came to me about a different use of a potential vaccine. With the vaccine in its normal form probably not doing much aside from making breathing in spores possible, and saving people who got scratched, what about offensive use of the vaccine, against infected areas and enemies? Assuming it works by eliminating the cause of people getting infected or attacking the cells of the microorganism thats responsible, couldn't it be used offensively, to get rid of the fungi by spreading it over a wide area? This was done in several games about infections before, though as someone who has not deeply studied the matter I can't say how realistic it is. Assuming it works, I can see it having some real value if it could do damage against infected in a big area. Doing something like that, admittedly, does not seem to fit in all too well into the series and it is a bit more on the more fantastical side of things when compared to the usually more grounded story, but it is a different thought i haven't really noticed being discussed, and maybe then the point that Joel actually caused a severe loss for humanity gets some more weight behind it. Thoughts on that?

Edited July 7, 2020 by Nighcisama

[DarkHpokinsn]

16 minutes ago, Nighcisama said:

No, genius, it literally means you can type it into google and find tweets of him talking about the matter, and a video of Neil Druckmann showing a picture of several female characters, including Quiet, and then going on a rant about how problematic these characters are in his mind, that they are marginalizing women and reduce them to less than they can be. Wanna see the video and articles about said video? Since you have proven that this is too complicated of a task for you to do without your caretaker holding your hand, allow me to do it for you, I want no one to say that I do not take care of socities most unfortunate people.

This site here was invented for people like you, it types things into google for you, it even shows you step by step how you'd have to do it yourself if you ever get ambitious enough to dedicate your braincells to a google search of your own. It is in german though, but with reading not being your strong suit that should not make a difference, as it is shown as well: https://de.lmgtfy.com/?q=neil+druckmann+female+representation

Now try to follow me here. Focus, you can do it. You gotta follow this link, then the site will do the google search for you that you can't manage to do on your own, but you gotta click on the google search button manually after it typed everything in for you, that much it expects of you. So, one click, can you manage that, little one? If not, ask someone around you for help, because I can't make it simpler for you than that.

 

Regarding the nonsensical rest of your reply... Real talk now. I mean this without irony, but i am sure you do not have the brain capacity to even understand the meanings of the words you are trying to have a discussion about. I don't even mean this as an insult, you are just not made for topics that require some thought, you have proven as much, and that is fine, one can't be great at everything, I am a really bad singer for example. What I am saying is, I can't break concepts like bad and good writing down enough for you to understand why the story in question has bad writing, I'd have a better chance of teaching it to my (by now) dead pet bird, so don't be surprised I won't even try anymore. The writing is pretty damn bad, I could write a ridiculously long post about everything I think is wrong with it, and people smarter and more dedicated than me have dissected this poor excuse of a story even more than I'd ever could, it is all out there. Try to find a video for it and reduce the speed to 0.5, watch 2-3 minutes at a time, make many notes and maybe you can get some of the points made in these videos, you could even use google yourself to find them, or send me a pm so i can do it for you again if it is too much for you. I won't bother with you anymore in this topic from now on because i'd feel bad to further pick on someone like you, and it is not leading anywhere either for obvious reasons.

 

Now if you don't mind, there might be people here who actually have what it takes to bring this discussion forward, some great efforts have been made, and we wouldn't want it to get closed, so send me your next embarrassement per pm if you don't mind.

 

-------------------

 

Back on topic. What I haven't really seen getting mentioned anywhere in any discussion about the first or second game i have followed, is a thought that just came to me about a different use of a potential vaccine. With the vaccine in its normal form probably not doing much aside from making breathing in spores possible, and saving people who got scratched, what about offensive use of the vaccine, against infected areas and enemies? Assuming it works by eliminating the cause of people getting infected or attacking the cells of the microorganism thats responsible, couldn't it be used offensively, to get rid of the fungi by spreading it over a wide area? This was done in several games about infections before, though as someone who has not deeply studied the matter I can't say how realistic it is. Assuming it works, I can see it having some real value if it could do damage against infected in a big area. Doing something like that, admittedly, does not seem to fit in all too well into the series and it is a bit more on the more fantastical side of things when compared to the usually more grounded story, but it is a different thought i haven't really noticed being discussed, and maybe then the point that Joel actually caused a severe loss for humanity gets some more weight behind it. Thoughts on that?

Yeah, but when you make claims you have to prove it, it’s not my job to prove your claims. I am most definitely smart enough, you’re just going on about stuff that you say is true but then can’t prove it and just tell me to google it. Screw you for yet again insulting my intelligence. Have fun in your ignorance.

[emailking]

One thing I never see mentioned about Joel's decision is how stupid it was. How often do you think one person can take out dozens of soldiers with assault rifles without dying in the attempt? You'd have to be suicidal to try what he did.

[djb5f]

7 minutes ago, emailking said:

One thing I never see mentioned about Joel's decision is how stupid it was. How often do you think one person can take out dozens of soldiers with assault rifles without dying in the attempt? You'd have to be suicidal to try what he did.

well if he died, he knew he could always restart from the last checkpoint.

[EdinhoN]

5 minutes ago, emailking said:

One thing I never see mentioned about Joel's decision is how stupid it was. How often do you think one person can take out dozens of soldiers with assault rifles without dying in the attempt? You'd have to be suicidal to try what he did.

Well, having to bear with the loss of a second "daughter" would be too much for him.

He chose to risk his life in saving her because his life before meeting Ellie was a meaningless survivalist one. Ellie gave him the opportunity to be a father again and he went all-in in the suicidal task to save the one who brought meaning to his life again.

It's beautiful.

[Rias Gremory]

13 hours ago, NekoRave said:

I think Abby doomed humanity by existing

Yeah I think that Abby doomed everyone in on it as well.

[PFinchen]

9 hours ago, djb5f said:

Is it possible that Abby has man parts?  I honestly thought that might be part of the reveal during that scene.  Or that she was going through a gender change? And it would fit this “woke” era.  If nothing else, not sure where she gets her testosterone supplements during the pandemic!
 

Joel and Ellie developed a nice bond over a short amount of time but they were not father/daughter.  As a parent, nothing approaches that level even if you are tasked with overlooking the care of someone in need.

 

It is a video game with a lot of other leaps so I don’t think that the distribution of a potential vaccine is of much importance.  At any rate, it was finally a hope, which was better than anything else they had.  
 

Chances were pretty high that Ellie was going to die from the infected/hunters/whoever pretty soon anyway so might as well make her life mean something.  I would prefer that option myself instead of living in that bleak world!  Joel made a self-interested decision.  It does not make him a bad person, just human, and I understand Abby’s point of view from losing her father who not violent and was just trying to help.

 

Wonderful story and game.  I thought the Lev/Yara storyline did not fit well, but outside of that, it was quite a thrill.
 

 

I’ve been watching women’s boxing and MMA for 10+ years and I can assure you that there are women out there who not only match but exceed Abbys physique. Gamers need to drop this shit for real. It’s getting weird if not outright embarrassing. 

[Abby_TheLastofUs]

14 hours ago, Undead Wolf said:

Joel made the right decision. He was done dirty in TLOU2.

 

 

When your character isn't a character but a cold calculating machine.

[Ptirle]

For anyone that wants the red pill, vaccine is pointless for fungi and fungi is easily removed with already existing drugs. Joel made the right decision. Doctors in TLOU are stupid. Fin.

Edited July 7, 2020 by Ptirle