Quality VS Quantity - "Skill Leaderboard" request

[You]

Remember a time, before PS3, before trophies, when the fun in a game was completing it and trying to show off your skill?

As many of us here are perfectly aware, we're living in a time when trophy levels are all about weight, why bother even playing difficult games when you can just play quick and easy games and in recent months, buy a games that literally advertises itself as an easy platinum from the developer itself?

 

Well I came up with an idea, a suggestion to this very site, I'd love to a "Skill LeaderBoard" tab added next to "LeaderBoard".

 

It would use all the same information and data collected on here on the site, but would be sorted in order of "Ultra Rare" trophies only and not level.
As absolutely simple as that.

 

If two people shared the same number then you'd check to see who has the most "Rare" trophies etc.

 

I feel like the current system, not only rewards compulsive behaviour and benefits people who have more money and time than sense but if you have even a mild sense of wanting to keep your level up, you can feel guilty, or drained, having to play a long winded game to Platinum knowing that other people have already moved onto the next game.

 

In the current leaderboards, if you're just starting off on trophy hunting, well you're screwed basically trying to get even near to the top unless you boost it first with tons of easy games, other people have already got that head start on you and there is no choice but to do this.

 

An Ultra rare Leaderboard seems like a breath of fresh air. I'm aware that some games have very rare trophies just because they were on PS+ for a month, but that would make people play those games to get them and very quickly they'd no longer become ultra rare.

I'd genuinely like to see a leaderboard that shows the best skilled players in the world, a leaderboard where you can go up an down due to the fact that rarity of trophies changing daily. To reiterate, quality over quantity.

 

I was checking the world rankings yesterday and the fact that I have more Ultra rare trophies than some people in the top 20. I'm genuinely curious to what my world ranking would be if the order was sorted by skill over raw size. Just because I didn't feel the need to auto pop 5 platinums for sound shapes, just to keep up with the top rankers.

 

Anyone else like to see something like this, or similiar? It would put psnprofiles ahead of other trophy profile sites.

 

(Idea inspired from this thread:-)

https://forum.psnprofiles.com/topic/50397-frowning-upon-some-trophy-hunters/

 

[Xylobe]

https://psnprofiles.com/leaderboard/rarity

 

This feature has already been implemented in some capacity (though as far as I can tell it's not linked anywhere, which is bizarre). It's not sorted exclusively by number of Ultra Rares, and at a glance I can't exactly tell how the points are calculated, but it's still very similar to what you're requesting. 

[Dr_Mayus]

You know Start the Party! and Chaotic Shadow Warriors are UR plats meanwhile Velocity Ultra isn't...I think it takes a lot more skill to plat Velocity Ultra than Start the Party

[DF007gamer]

2 hours ago, enaysoft said:

Remember a time, before PS3, before trophies, when the fun in a game was completing it and trying to show off your skill?

 

 

 

 Don't know what you've been playing on the PS3 but there's a shitload of "fun in a game" and "trying to show off your skill" without worrying about trophies on the PS3

Edited July 18, 2017 by DF007gamer

[Sergen]

Most ultra rare trophies on PSN don't even require skill, they can be grinds or be very popular but the majority of people won't go out of their way to platinum it. Fight Night Round 4 is currently my rarest platinum, but without the corrupt belt system, it would be one of my easiest platinums, the rarity certainly doesn't define skill for that game unless you were to fight against a real champion who was defending their belt. It kinda makes me laugh though when people do treat trophies this way, because there's only a very small amount of trophies that I'd consider as "skill based", but otherwise most trophies can be exploited with glitches or over-powered moves, I've done The Max on Injustice: Gods Among Us Ultimate Edition on the EU & USA PS4 versions in the past 24 hours, I came into it with hardly any experience, I simply learned the basics of some AI opponent attack patterns and I used a combo with Solomon Grundy that puts out more than 40% damage, if that battle is considered as the most difficult thing on Injustice, then I can say that 0.10% rarity for that game isn't defined by "skill". 

 

Your own list can be critiqued for lacking "skill" based games, considering you have a fairly average number of Ultra Rare trophies, but hey, that may change so best of luck with your future trophy "skill" endeavours. 

Edited July 18, 2017 by Sergen

[AlchemistWer]

If you prefer quality vs quantity just play games you really enjoy and forget the other numbers, many UR are game you need spend hundred hour or more and grind a lot, if you want UR + Skill I think in games like Blazblue can be a challenge. When you become a trophy hunter you must know what do you want to do with your account or what games you like and do your best wich each game.

[You]

Thanks for the link Xylobe, I checked out the link, I guess that's similiar to what I was looking for, although I don't understand how the order is generated, trophy level along with trophy rarity? I don't really understand it.

 

As other people have posted. Of course it isn't a perfect system, Ultra Rare trophies can be Ultra Rare for reasons other than them being difficult or requiring skill. I'm fully aware of that.

However in general, rare trophies are rare because they are not easily attainable, it just doesn't always mean that. And I'm certainly a person who plays games for fun over trophies.

 

At any rate, I still would like to see an option (or a filter selection at the very least) that orders users on this site in Ultra Rare trophies rather than level.

[FawltyPowers]

I'm all for anything rarity related and I don't think it's a bad idea.

 

You have to be very careful linking skill / difficulty with rarity though. Rarity covers skill / difficulty / grind / multiplayer content / free game / not yet fully established.

 

You mention the leaderboard just being from the total number of Ultra Rares accumulated. It could be weighted based on a couple of other factors:

• Ultra Rare game ratio. For example if you had 300 games and only 3 of those games you had earned Ultra Rare trophies in, then your average is 1%
• Average % of all your Ultra Rare trophies.

I'm not sure how the current rarity leaderboard works as I've not really looked at it, I think it's so many points from each trophies rarity so think your idea is unrelated.

 

I may have a play about with the idea myself.

 

So far I have

 

Total Ultra Rare Trophies - 109

Ultra Rare Game Ratio - 15/58 = 25.8%

Average % of all Ultra Rare Trophies - 3.40%

 

I know this isn't what you wrote, just got my mind working.

[Aradia117]

Trophy rarity may imply a high level of skill needed to achieve the reward, it may also just be because the game is freakishly obscure or the trophy is locked behind now shut down servers.

 

I can see what you are aiming for which would be force ranking the implied value of a platinum by difficulty of acquisition, but those determination thresholds are going to vary per player and I'm not sure it would provide as much clarity as you hope.

 

Case in point NieR: Automata, one player can play all 90+ hours of the game and individually achieve all 26 base game endings, farm upgrade mats and all the weapons, and level up to fight the secret boss among all the other hurdles to jump through.  Another player could beat route A and use the secret merchant to buy missing trophies with in game money to platinum the game in far less time.  Does that make the platinum worth more? less? 

 

What about Qurare The Magic Library an addictivly fun but not super hard pseudo CCG RPG MMO super hybrid that is loaded with ultra rare trophies due to game obscurity and low player trophy acquisition rate, is Qurare "better" that NieR: Automata because I can attest that platinum in NieR via the 90+ hour method is far more taxing than grinding in Qurare.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Seabound117
Additional info / factual correction

[Gage]

8 minutes ago, Seabound117 said:

Case in point NieR: Automata, one player can play all 90+ hours of the game and individually achieve all 26 base game endings, farm upgrade mats and all the weapons, and level up to fight the secret boss among all the other hurdles to jump through.  Another player could beat route A and use the secret merchant to buy missing trophies with in game money to platinum the game in 2-3 hours.  Does that make the platinum worth more? less? 

 

 

I don't know what you're doing but neither of those time estimates are actually anywhere close to what doing either of those things takes. ?

[Aradia117]

9 minutes ago, Gage said:

 

I don't know what you're doing but neither of those time estimates are actually anywhere close to what doing either of those things takes. 

 

I'm just going by my recollection of my play time which I think was 96 hrs for all trophies + DLC ending, I'm 100% sure others can finish the game much faster.  Also the comp one route the buy a platinum method was nerfed slightly when they took out the infinite desert housing farm that some players were using to speed level and gold farm.  I should re-edit my post though to make it less declarative though.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Seabound117
Spelling

[FawltyPowers]

This is the reason why I mentioned not to link rarity with skill / difficulty etc because it covers a multitude of reasons and this is primarily what people jump on.

 

You have to treat rarity exactly as it is - the number of people who have earned a trophy / total number of people who have played the game. Basically a very small number of people for whatever reason have earned that trophy. The arguments as to why it's Ultra Rare can be vast.

 

But the idea of a leaderboard is good. There are a lot of people out there who enjoy playing and beating games that are Ultra Rare in the same way as some people like to finish as many quick games as possible to bump their platinum count, level and leaderboard rank.

Edited July 19, 2017 by FawltyPowers
Spelling error

[Terra]

While this isn't a terrible idea, I don't think it's necessary. Ultra Rare does not always equate to skill and difficulty. My case? 

The Sims 3: Pets

Rarity: 2.86% 

 

Now this is not a hard game at all and doesn't require much skill to platinum yet it has a low achiever/platinum rate. Now this can be attributed to a multitude of bugs and glitches and the fact that it takes a good amount of grinding. To put this on the same level as games like Catherine, Metal Gear Solid II and so forth? That just doesn't seem right to me. 

[Aradia117]

Fair enough I think I fell into the misconception you are referring to equating trophy rarity with acquisition difficulty.  My only counter though would be the trophies that are either now glitched out or lost to server/company closures.  Spending effort to achieve ultra rare trophies should be lauded I agree, but trophy rarity due to unavailability despite player base will muddy the waters.  I think the sports games are most guilty of this don't their servers close after 18 months or so, so late adopters may be behind the 8-ball whereas pre-order players have a significant leg up.  

[DrBloodmoney]

As stated above, Rarity has little, if any, correlation to difficulty.

 

A lot of trophies are ultra rare simply because the game is bad. Others, are less rare because people only get into the game knowing the challengr ahead.

 

its difficult to justify the arguement that a Dark souls platinum is harder than playing The Sims 3 just because the people who buy Dark Souls 3 are more likely to know what they are getting into and are up for a challenge. the rarity board essentially rewards people for completing games that a lot of non-trophy hunting casuals are into.

 

 

[tpepper1985]

You would just have the same problems with this leaderboard as any other, there are ALWAYS quick and easy ways to progress somehow. For example my most of my ultra rare trophies are from SingStar: Sing Me a Love Song - Perform a duet song on St. Valentine's Day (1.7%) for example.

 

If there was a leaderboard like this I bet more people will start playing SingStar to get those easy UR trophies, or start playing really obscure games with low player counts. Maybe it would balance out over time who knows, but alot of people look for the path of least resistance when competing, and why wouldn't they?

Edited July 19, 2017 by tpepper1985

[FawltyPowers]

22 minutes ago, Seabound117 said:

Fair enough I think I fell into the misconception you are referring to equating trophy rarity with acquisition difficulty.  My only counter though would be the trophies that are either now glitched out or lost to server/company closures.  Spending effort to achieve ultra rare trophies should be lauded I agree, but trophy rarity due to unavailability despite player base will muddy the waters.  I think the sports games are most guilty of this don't their servers close after 18 months or so, so late adopters may be behind the 8-ball whereas pre-order players have a significant leg up.  

 

To be honest I think the OP was equating trophy rarity to difficulty / skill. When you do that you're looking at it wrong and you will be picked up on it.

 

I made the mistake of doing this a couple of years ago when a thread I made turned into why rarity does not equal difficulty when it wasn't the underlying reason for the discussion. I was just trying to steer this ship on a different course because I think, on the face of it, a leaderboard based on Ultra Rare trophies sounds like a good idea.

[skroq]

a bit pointless because DLC trophies are often easy but have ultra rare status. The same for VR games. Ultra rare does not reflect skill, rather than how many ppl bother to play DLC, etc.

[FawltyPowers]

8 minutes ago, tpepper1985 said:

You would just have the same problems with this leaderboard as any other, there are ALWAYS quick and easy ways to progress somehow. For example my most of my ultra rare trophies are from Sing Star: Sing Me a Love Song - Perform a duet song on St. Valentine's Day (1.7%) for example.

 

If there was a leaderboard like this I bet more people will start playing Singstar to get those easy UR trophies, or start playing really obscure games with low player counts. Maybe it would balance out over time who knows, but alot of people look for the path of least resistance when competing, and why wouldn't they?

 

Of course, in exactly the same way they do now to progress up the current leaderboard. The only difference here, exactly as you say, games that were Ultra Rare no longer would be the more people take that route.

 

This reasoning makes it kind of fun.

 

4 minutes ago, skroq said:

a bit pointless because DLC trophies are often easy but have ultra rare status. The same for VR games. Ultra rare does not reflect skill, rather than how many ppl bother to play DLC, etc.

 

Geometric values has balanced this out a lot. Not perfect but definitely a lot better.

 

Again though, DLC is just another factor of the rarity "umbrella".

Edited July 19, 2017 by FawltyPowers

[Aradia117]

I guess one major benefit is this method could result in more players experiencing amazingly good but incredibly obscure games they never would have given a chance to prior to this.  Perhaps if this movement had existed in 2016 a game littered with ultra rare trophies like Qurare The Magic Library would have been saved from server shutdown.    Now I realize there is much much more involved with Qurare's situation, mostly on the devs side, but a higher active player base would have helped significantly.  Meh I'm over simplifying too much, but exposing players to new rare games is a good thing count me in.

[DrBloodmoney]

16 minutes ago, Seabound117 said:

I guess one major benefit is this method could result in more players experiencing amazingly good but incredibly obscure games they never would have given a chance to prior to this.  Perhaps if this movement had existed in 2016 a game littered with ultra rare trophies like Qurare The Magic Library would have been saved from server shutdown.    Now I realize there is much much more involved with Qurare's situation, mostly on the devs side, but a higher active player base would have helped significantly.  Meh I'm over simplifying too much, but exposing players to new rare games is a good thing count me in.

 

Amazingly good but incredibly obscure games will likely not be very rare, trophy-wise.

 

if only 200 people play a game but it is so good that 100 of them stick with it to get the platinum it will be a common plat.

 

If on the other hand the game is the opposite - popular sales-wise but not very good - and 2million people play it but only 100,000 of them get the plat, it will be ultra rare.

 

 

[Hemiak]

This is the thread that led to the rarity leaderboard and I believe this should link to Slys post. You'll have to root around a bit to figure out what exactly went into it though because I didn't feel like taking it that far. 

https://forum.psnprofiles.com/topic/46506-rarity-leaderboard/?page=4

 

[You]

Thanks everyone, I wasn't expecting so many replies

As people have pointed out (and I totally agree with) there are many games with expections where rarity does not always mean skill.

 

However as I also explained, if there WAS a leaderboard that only listed people with Ultra Rares, there would be people trying to go for those "Ultra Rare but not difficult trophies" and then the the rarity of those trophies would decrease. They are only Ultra Rare because why bother spending days (or whatever) going for those trophies or trying to found them second hand online when you could just be playing new games over obscure old ones. The really difficult and rare trophies would remain Ultra Rare whilst the others would eventually turn to just regular Rare.

 

Right now, quantity over quality really is the way the leaderboards are run now.

 

If you want to top the leaderboards then there is literally no reason to try attempting any difficult or "long time" to achieve trophies.

Edited July 24, 2017 by enaysoft

[bruin-rocks]

Skill varies between people, what one person views as really easy could be a nightmare to someone else. My Lumo platinum sits at a 0.67%, and is my rarest platinum, but I found the game to be quite easy personally, Road Not Taken could be another example of an Ultra Rare easy game... At 265 ultra rares probably half of them should be uncommon or common. 

[steel6burgh]

there are trophies that are very challenging that are not ultra rare also.  This may be do to it being a lot of fun so people don't mind working toward it.  Sometimes people have found a way to cheat.  Take Mile high Club.  It was a very challenging trophy.  I practiced at it quite a bit and it took me a lot of time.  It was ultra rare then but now its rare because everyone used a save glitch to get it.  So many of us that earned a ultra rare were sort of robbed out of it.  So i could care less just play games that are fun to play and that you like and if you get an ultra rare you got it doing something you like.  Playing shitty games for trophies is a waste of time.  playing some insanely hard game that sucks for a ultra rare trophy is equally a waste of time.