Issue : What Kind of Dispute Evidence is Acceptable?...

[ProfBambam55]

first off, allow me to state that I don't know if this is the correct section of the forums to post and that I don't have much of an opinion on this...i would greatly appreciate if we could refrain from personal attacks and just allow everyone to voice their point of view however unique it may seem...the goal is to avoid derailing disputes every time this topic comes up...

 

my understanding of the situation : it would seem that in some disputes, a member has information that could cast doubt on whether a flag should stick...these people are being asked to refrain from posting their intel publicly since the disputer could latch onto that excuse and say "that's right...that's what I did", in hopes of having their flag removed even if they actually didn't do anything related to the excuse given...

 

it would seem that all information proving their guilt is fair game to post but that only information proving their innocence is being let's say "censored"...the logic seems to be that the disputer should be able to prove they didn't cheat without outside help if they in fact didn't cheat...time stamps that are potentially legit might be very similar to those used to unlock trophies that fall into criteria of "cheated" with regards to the leaderboards so it is best to hear the disputer's explanation before providing any sort of potential alibi...they could basically confess to cheating up front so it's best to try to avoid proving their innocence before hearing them out...

 

the counter-argument seems to be "well, what if that person gets confused or can't remember" and "if there's a possibility that the time stamps are legit, why is there even a flag in the first place?"...if all "negative" intel is fair game, why shouldn't "positive" intel be the same?...intel is intel after all...information that could prove someone's innocence could just be sent to the disputer via private message so it shouldn't matter if it's public or not...is the flag team only interested in branding people as cheaters with this "proven guilty before presuming innocence" style of handling disputes?...

 

what are your thoughts?...

 

p.s. i may have misunderstood the reasoning or arguments behind either side so feel free to correct me if inaccurate...i don't intend on getting involved in this topic just create a place for discussion outside of an actual dispute...seems more appropriate in my opinion...cheers...

Edited April 15, 2018 by ProfBambam55

[Bezenko]

I do understand why they don't want people to post info on how the trophies might be legit, because as you said, obviously they will latch onto that excuse. However, if there even is a tiny possibility that the timestamps might be possible by legit playing, the trophies are NOT obtained in an impossible order and therefore should never have been flagged in the first place.

[MMDE]

I tend to appreciate the disputer expressing what happened without too much interference. If they can't remember exactly, that's one thing, but it's good if they can explain as much as they do remember without someone else chiming in to give the disputer some totally out there excuse. It's not that they can't be helped, but rather about trying to find out what really happened and not "taint" the dispute.

 

We've seen the disputers latch onto these excuses as soon as they are uttered and it doesn't make the disputer look less guilty, even if that may be what actually happened. It just makes it way harder to make a correct judgement, and it can do more harm than good for the disputer.

 

It's totally appreciated when people can verify if what they say they did is possible or impossible. And really, the more likely the explanation is, the more acceptable it is. If you are unsure, you can send me or grimy the info. The information is not lost, it doesn't disappear just because it's not put in the public thread. It helps making a more correct judgement. I'm not interested in having people who are innocent stay flagged.

 

As for everything that goes to show their guilt is fair game, whatever. Doesn't do that much harm. Hopefully if it's wrong people will say so. If I know it's wrong, I say so in the thread and maybe even PM them about it. I've done so multiple times. It doesn't really make much of a difference for the outcome when it's just ignored by the person who makes the judgement.

 

17 minutes ago, Bezenko said:

However, if there even is a tiny possibility that the timestamps might be possible by legit playing, the trophies are NOT obtained in an impossible order and therefore should never have been flagged in the first place.

 

I rather want a correct judgement.

Edited April 15, 2018 by MMDE

[ProfBambam55]

23 minutes ago, MMDE said:

As for everything that goes to show their guilt is fair game, whatever. Doesn't do that much harm. Hopefully if it's wrong people will say so.

just a quick question...what if the disputer has no idea how to respond to such an accusation (which can seem fishy), it becomes the focus of the dispute, so people jump in saying it's wrong for so-and-so reason giving the disputer an alibi which is then censored?...again, no opinion as I barely follow disputes...curious...can't resist when it comes to logic stuff...

Edited April 15, 2018 by ProfBambam55

[MMDE]

1 hour ago, ProfBambam55 said:

just a quick question...what if the disputer has no idea how to respond to such an accusation (which can seem fishy), it becomes the focus of the dispute, so people jump in saying it's wrong for so-and-so reason giving the disputer an alibi which is then censored?...again, no opinion as I barely follow disputes...curious...can't resist when it comes to logic stuff...

 

It's not like I'm saying the information shouldn't be brought up, it's just the way it is done. If someone PM me about something, I will happily say what they say isn't correct. And people can say that in the thread too without necessarily give away too much information about why that is to the disputer.

Edited April 15, 2018 by MMDE

[DaivRules]

To answer the thread question directly: No actual “evidence” submitted would ever be considered “acceptable” to prove innocence, which is why it’s absurd when the less than helpful posts in disputes tell the poster to provide any. Any and everything submitted will be dismissed as “it could have been fabricated.” The ONLY thing a disputed can do is hope someone on the internet has posted about the exact same problem, link to it, describe their experience, and then wait. I’m not talking about the very likely save file loading, but rather the seeming one-off trophy or two that are out of place. (But likely shouldn’t have flagged if it’s just one or two trophies any way - per Slys comments on multiple occasions.)

 

I really would love a re-vamp of the Dispute process that locks the threads to anyone except the flagging team or the disputer until the explanation has been given. And also much more control of the garbage that gets posted so they don’t look like the circus it is.

 

Posts should deal with the disputed game and trophies only and they should be aimed at disputing the reason or supporting it and that’s it.

[Beyondthegrave07]

What have I started? Is this from the Okami dispute where I asked MMDE if I should post my explanation or not? 

 

I don't think PMing the dispute team is that bad since the correct judgement will be found either way. What we DON'T want though, is people to be discouraged from helping at all with disputes due to personal attacks for trying to defend someone. I feel like anything off topic should be deleted immediately since it adds absolutely nothing to the dispute. That's the main reason why I ask because I don't want to go back and forth with someone questioning me why and have a 20-page dispute with 2 pages of relevance. That makes it harder on the dispute team and harder on the disputer.

 

Honestly, I wish people would stop making pointless disputes and people would stop making up stories and just say I don't know if s/he doesn't know. It'd make it a lot easier to help them out that way. I also wish obvious cheating could not be disputed publically so maybe forum dwellers would take them more seriously, and we could figure this out together.

[hBLOXs]

49 minutes ago, Beyondthegrave07 said:

What have I started? Is this from the Okami dispute where I asked MMDE if I should post my explanation or not? 

 

Fwiw, I don't think this was directed at you. I took it as Bambam being too inconvenienced by the exchange between MMDE and Sergen.

[ProfBambam55]

17 minutes ago, hBLOXs said:

Fwiw, I don't think this was directed at you. I took it as Bambam being too inconvenienced by the exchange between MMDE and Sergen.

whoa, whoa...hold up here...this is not a new topic on this site...i've seen it more than once, and most recently in a status update that seems to have made its way into an unrelated dispute...i think it's discussion-worthy so created a thread to avoid seeing it in future disputes...i've found that issues like this are better discussed in their own threads...it serves as a reference point if they are brought up again...is that ok?...and please just ask before making unfounded assumptions...

Edited April 15, 2018 by ProfBambam55

[ExHaseo]

You literally said in your post why "positive" intel shouldn't be posted publicly. They could just claim that's exactly what they did, even if they didn't. Even so, I'll try to explain what I think of the situation, and the reasoning behind why this is the way things are.

 

First though, a person who gets flagged has an idea what happened in the game. I will never believe they simply "forgot". If something was out of the ordinary, and if trophies are out of order, then either something happened out of the ordinary, and they will remember what happened, or there's actually nothing wrong with the timestamps and the flag will get lifted. It just doesn't make any sense to completely forget something that took hours and hours to do, especially when you're forced to think about that experience. Even more so if a game gave you trouble, or you ran into a glitched or buggy trophy.

 

Take a look through your profile. How many games are there that you've platted that you can't remember at all? Like, you see it and are like, "Wow, I had no idea I played that." How many of them had glitched or buggy trophies have you forgotten about? How many of them did you spend weeks playing that you just don't remember at all? I'm willing to bet there's not a single one you can really say you don't have an idea what you did when you look at your profile. If you seriously don't have any recollection of something, you should go get yourself checked out. There might be something seriously wrong with you. I'm not joking or trying to be mean, I seriously mean that. You could have brain damage or be severely malnourished.

 

Anyway, here's an analogy.

Let's say someone robs a convenience store. 3 years later they get put on trial thanks to an old security tape that was found. It looks like them on the tape, but it's blurry enough that it's possibly someone else. A witness says they saw the defendant in the store that day around the time of the robbery, and it looked like they had a weapon on them. (we can equate the witness as the flagger, and the security tape as the seemingly out of place trophies) 
 

The defendant claims they forgot what happened, but says they didn't do anything wrong and should be let go. They claim they have no idea what time they were in the store, or what they bought, or what they were doing at all that day. (We can equate this to what the flagged person says in their initial dispute post)

 

Two more witnesses corroborate the story of the first witness. (we'll equate this to random people posting in the thread showing further proof that the trophies are out of order)

 

Now let's pretend random people can testify in real court. A random person walks in and says the defendant just bought a Coke, and then left. Since the witness also bought a Coke there once. (We can equate this to random people posting evidence that can possibly get the flag lifted)

The defendant claims that's what happened, they all of a sudden remember. 

 

Are you really going to believe them? Do you really think it's fair for the defendant to be released because of a random person's experience, when multiple other people are giving evidence that points to the defendant being guilty? I certainly don't think so. I think the defendant should be able to speak for themselves, and should at least have an idea of what happened that day. They can forget the fine details, like exactly what they bought, or the exact time, but when presented with evidence that can remind them of the day and place, they should be able to at least remember something. Like if they were there in the morning or afternoon, and the type of thing they bought (drink, snack, gas, whatever). They certainly shouldn't just be let go because a random person spoon fed them a story. A person who's actually innocent will make an effort to prove their innocence as well. They won't just say they forgot, or that their cousin did it. They will try to remember what happened, and try to show some evidence.

 

Now, let's go back a little bit. If someone came forward with possible evidence proving the defendant's possible innocence, they would have to go through the court to get the evidence processed. Then it can be decided if it's actually relevant to the case or not. If it is, it can be presented, but if there isn't a connection to the current case, it can be thrown out. (we can equate this to people having to PM mods before publicly posting something that could show a flag being wrong)

 

Point being, it's really up to the defendant to present evidence of their innocence.

 

If someone wants to claim they forgot, or just whine about it, and not present any evidence of their innocence, then they shouldn't be handed something that does. Especially considering that people who cheat and then lie about it, will continue to lie for their benefit. An actually innocent person will try to prove it. If they really don't understand what happened, and didn't realize that the trophies were out of order, and someone else comes forward to show evidence that the trophies aren't out of order, then it should be up to the mods to decide whether that info should be public or not. 

 

It's ultimately up to the mods how they want to process flags. They're the ones in charge of keeping the leaderboards clean, and while people may not like it, that's just how it works. No matter where you go, the people in charge make the rules, and have reasons behind those rules. By all means, always ask why, but don't expect them to change the rules. Especially if there's a good reason for them.

[hBLOXs]

23 minutes ago, ProfBambam55 said:

whoa, whoa...hold up here...this is not a new topic on this site...i've seen it more than once, and most recently in a status update that seems to have made its way into an unrelated dispute...i think it's discussion-worthy so created a thread to avoid seeing it in future disputes...i've found that issues like this are better discussed in their own threads...it serves as a reference point if they are brought up again...is that ok?...and please just ask before making unfounded assumptions...

Oh come on now. The Okami dispute was perfectly on topic - except for maybe some unnecessary background of people's living abroad experiences - until Sergen and MMDE made one comment each of a more general nature. That's when you decided it derailed the dispute, needed to be taken elsewhere, etc. How exactly does that make my comment an unfounded assumption?

 

If as a result Beyondthegrave feels put on the spot when he was nothing but helpful while trying to stick to MMDE's rules I feel like something has gone wrong.

[Beyondthegrave07]

52 minutes ago, hBLOXs said:

Fwiw, I don't think this was directed at you. I took it as Bambam being too inconvenienced by the exchange between MMDE and Sergen.

I'm not saying it's directly at me, but some of this discussion did come up in it yesterday in a dispute. Makes me wonder if what happened yesterday made him want this to be discussed. That's all.

 

There's always been friction about how disputes should be handled. That'll never change and it's been building up for quite a while between some members.

Edited April 15, 2018 by Beyondthegrave07

[turpinator1986]

16 minutes ago, ExHaseo said:

You literally said in your post why "positive" intel shouldn't be posted publicly. They could just claim that's exactly what they did, even if they didn't. Even so, I'll try to explain what I think of the situation, and the reasoning behind why this is the way things are.

 

First though, a person who gets flagged has an idea what happened in the game. I will never believe they simply "forgot". If something was out of the ordinary, and if trophies are out of order, then either something happened out of the ordinary, and they will remember what happened, or there's actually nothing wrong with the timestamps and the flag will get lifted. It just doesn't make any sense to completely forget something that took hours and hours to do, especially when you're forced to think about that experience. Even more so if a game gave you trouble, or you ran into a glitched or buggy trophy.

 

Take a look through your profile. How many games are there that you've platted that you can't remember at all? Like, you see it and are like, "Wow, I had no idea I played that." How many of them had glitched or buggy trophies have you forgotten about? How many of them did you spend weeks playing that you just don't remember at all? I'm willing to bet there's not a single one you can really say you don't have an idea what you did when you look at your profile. If you seriously don't have any recollection of something, you should go get yourself checked out. There might be something seriously wrong with you. I'm not joking or trying to be mean, I seriously mean that. You could have brain damage or be severely malnourished.

 

Anyway, here's an analogy.

Let's say someone robs a convenience store. 3 years later they get put on trial thanks to an old security tape that was found. It looks like them on the tape, but it's blurry enough that it's possibly someone else. A witness says they saw the defendant in the store that day around the time of the robbery, and it looked like they had a weapon on them. (we can equate the witness as the flagger, and the security tape as the seemingly out of place trophies) 
 

The defendant claims they forgot what happened, but says they didn't do anything wrong and should be let go. They claim they have no idea what time they were in the store, or what they bought, or what they were doing at all that day. (We can equate this to what the flagged person says in their initial dispute post)

 

Two more witnesses corroborate the story of the first witness. (we'll equate this to random people posting in the thread showing further proof that the trophies are out of order)

 

Now let's pretend random people can testify in real court. A random person walks in and says the defendant just bought a Coke, and then left. Since the witness also bought a Coke there once. (We can equate this to random people posting evidence that can possibly get the flag lifted)

The defendant claims that's what happened, they all of a sudden remember. 

 

Are you really going to believe them? Do you really think it's fair for the defendant to be released because of a random person's experience, when multiple other people are giving evidence that points to the defendant being guilty? I certainly don't think so. I think the defendant should be able to speak for themselves, and should at least have an idea of what happened that day. They can forget the fine details, like exactly what they bought, or the exact time, but when presented with evidence that can remind them of the day and place, they should be able to at least remember something. Like if they were there in the morning or afternoon, and the type of thing they bought (drink, snack, gas, whatever). They certainly shouldn't just be let go because a random person spoon fed them a story. A person who's actually innocent will make an effort to prove their innocence as well. They won't just say they forgot, or that their cousin did it. They will try to remember what happened, and try to show some evidence.

 

Now, let's go back a little bit. If someone came forward with possible evidence proving the defendant's possible innocence, they would have to go through the court to get the evidence processed. Then it can be decided if it's actually relevant to the case or not. If it is, it can be presented, but if there isn't a connection to the current case, it can be thrown out. (we can equate this to people having to PM mods before publicly posting something that could show a flag being wrong)

 

Point being, it's really up to the defendant to present evidence of their innocence.

 

If someone wants to claim they forgot, or just whine about it, and not present any evidence of their innocence, then they shouldn't be handed something that does. Especially considering that people who cheat and then lie about it, will continue to lie for their benefit. An actually innocent person will try to prove it. If they really don't understand what happened, and didn't realize that the trophies were out of order, and someone else comes forward to show evidence that the trophies aren't out of order, then it should be up to the mods to decide whether that info should be public or not. 

 

It's ultimately up to the mods how they want to process flags. They're the ones in charge of keeping the leaderboards clean, and while people may not like it, that's just how it works. No matter where you go, the people in charge make the rules, and have reasons behind those rules. By all means, always ask why, but don't expect them to change the rules. Especially if there's a good reason for them.

I love your analogy. Well written too. However I fear it’s just not relevant here because in a court you are innocent until proven guilty. However on these dispute threads you are guilty as charged with little to no credit put into any explanation you may offer. 

[Stardroid]

I don't know if I speak for others, but I would personally like for these long ass threads to just disappear and talk about it internally. It's just the same recycled crap over and over again

Edited April 15, 2018 by Starlove-

[eigen-space]

42 minutes ago, ExHaseo said:

First though, a person who gets flagged has an idea what happened in the game. I will never believe they simply "forgot". If something was out of the ordinary, and if trophies are out of order, then either something happened out of the ordinary, and they will remember what happened, or there's actually nothing wrong with the timestamps and the flag will get lifted. It just doesn't make any sense to completely forget something that took hours and hours to do, especially when you're forced to think about that experience. Even more so if a game gave you trouble, or you ran into a glitched or buggy trophy.

 

Take a look through your profile. How many games are there that you've platted that you can't remember at all? Like, you see it and are like, "Wow, I had no idea I played that." How many of them had glitched or buggy trophies have you forgotten about? How many of them did you spend weeks playing that you just don't remember at all? I'm willing to bet there's not a single one you can really say you don't have an idea what you did when you look at your profile. If you seriously don't have any recollection of something, you should go get yourself checked out. There might be something seriously wrong with you. I'm not joking or trying to be mean, I seriously mean that. You could have brain damage or be severely malnourished.

Ummm... I'm looking at my profile and honestly can't even remember the plots or character names for half the games I played, let alone remember the process I took to complete it or what order I went for trophies in without looking at timestamps. Even ones that had "buggy" trophies (like Psycho-Pass) I can't remember in detail what happened to cause a trophy to pop/not pop or even which trophy it was. I'd imagine it would be even more foggy for people that have trophies from over 5 years ago or whatever.
If it's something where you just play through a game blind before looking at a guide for cleanup, you might not even notice that something popped in an unnatural order or didn't pop at all. I'd imagine this is doubly true for individuals who didn't play games with a trophy hunter mindset and went back (sometimes years later) to get the remaining trophies.
OR if trophy hunting is something you do every day, it's kind of like the "I can't even remember what I ate for breakfast". It's something you do all the time and don't necessarily pay attention to unless you perceive it as something extraordinary. If something glitches but you can fix it easily, then you're probably not likely to remember it.

So, yeah, not remembering what you did in a game isn't terribly uncommon and it isn't indicative of brain damage, malnourishment or any other problem. And while it certainly doesn't help your case when trying to prove innocence, it isn't necessarily a measure of guilt either.

Edited April 15, 2018 by eigen-space

[LordNeet-]

I thought people didn't examine evidence in a witch hunt?

Edited April 15, 2018 by LordNeet-

[ExHaseo]

10 minutes ago, turpinator1986 said:

I love your analogy. Well written too. However I fear it’s just not relevant here because in a court you are innocent until proven guilty. However on these dispute threads you are guilty as charged with little to no credit put into any explanation you may offer. 

Doesn't seem any different to me. When someone is on trial, you're put in jail until your trial. It's called innocent until proven guilty, but it's really not that way in practice. Someone gets accused of murder, and their face is all over everything and are branded a murderer by the public. They're treated like a murderer until their trial. Even if they do end up being innocent, they're treated differently afterwards. Lots of people's lives have been destroyed by false accusations because of it.

 

As for here, it's not really any different. You're temporarily taken off the leaderboards, but are still given a chance to dispute and be put back on.

 

2 minutes ago, eigen-space said:

Ummm... I'm looking at my profile and honestly can't even remember the plots or character names for half the games I played, let alone remember the process I took to complete it or what order I went for trophies in without looking at timestamps. Even ones that had "buggy" trophies (like Psycho-Pass) I can't remember in detail what happened to cause a trophy to pop/not pop or even which trophy it was. I'd imagine it would be even more foggy for people that have trophies from over 5 years ago or whatever.
If it's something where you just play through a game blind before looking at a guide for cleanup, you might not even notice that something popped in an unnatural order or didn't pop at all. I'd imagine this is doubly true for individuals who didn't play games with a trophy hunter mindset and went back (sometimes years later) to get the remaining trophies.
OR if trophy hunting is something you do every day, it's kind of like the "I can't even remember what I ate for breakfast". It's something you do all the time and don't necessarily pay attention to unless you perceive it as something extraordinary.

So, yeah, not remembering what you did in a game isn't terribly uncommon and it isn't indicative of brain damage, malnourishment or any other problem. And while it certainly doesn't help your case when trying to prove innocence, it isn't necessarily a measure of guilt either.

Except you just proved my point. You do remember something. All knowledge of the game isn't gone. You remember what games had buggy trophies, like Psycho-Pass. You may not remember off the top of your head the specifics, but I'm sure you could think of what gave you an issue if you really thought about it, or looked at the individual trophies. Or if you went looking for common problems with the game, you'd be able to figure out which one happened to you. You didn't just completely forget about the game, and you didn't just completely forget that there were issues with the trophy list. If you were to be reported, you should have an idea why, because you remember trophies being buggy, and could go looking for what happened, and try to jog your memory to present evidence that your trophies were bugged. If you don't want to do anything about it, and you don't want to try and remember, then that's on you.

 

I have plenty of games from more than 5 years ago that I have recollection of. I still remember that stupid robot Nancy giving me issues in Tekken 6, which was my first plat back in March 2010. 8 years ago. I remember having to grind the same mission for hours in Killer is Dead to get money (a game from 5 years ago). I remember the last trophy I got in Lollipop Chainsaw was the one for looking up her skirt, because I didn't want to feel like a perv, but it was the only one needed for the plat, so I did it. I don't remember the plot or the specifics for any of these games, but I remember parts. I remember what gave me trouble. I remember what took the longest. Looking at the specific trophies also bring up more memories of each game. Which is my point. Unless you have photographic memory, you're not going to remember everything, but you're not going to just completely forget something. Most importantly, memory gets jogged when I look at the list. Which is normal. When presented with something you've done, it should jog your memory. If not, then there's likely something wrong with you.

[eigen-space]

4 minutes ago, ExHaseo said:

I don't remember the plot or the specifics for any of these games, but I remember parts. I remember what gave me trouble. I remember what took the longest. Looking at the specific trophies also bring up more memories of each game.

But if a trophy wasn't troublesome or didn't take up much time... and you weren't playing for trophies but rather for enjoyment and later went for cleanup... would you remember?
That was also part of my point.

People who are more casual gamers who later turn into trophy hunters may not realize that something is amiss.

[ExHaseo]

Just now, eigen-space said:

But if a trophy wasn't troublesome or didn't take up much time... and you weren't playing for trophies but rather for enjoyment and later went for cleanup... would you remember?
That was also part of my point.

People who are more casual gamers who later turn into trophy hunters may not realize that something is amiss.

 

If I thought about it, and/or looked at the list, and/or replayed the game, and/or looked for common issues, then yeah. Just like I said. That's part of being human. If you seriously can't remember things when actively trying to jog your memory, then there's likely something wrong with you. 

 

If they don't realize something is wrong, and they played the game normally, then there probably really is nothing wrong, and the flag will get lifted. If there was even an approved flag in the first place. Flags need to be approved by a mod after being reported. If someone falsely reports, then it likely won't be approved, and there won't be need for a dispute. If it does get approved, then they can think about it, and walk people through what they did. It's not difficult. People outright refusing to think shouldn't get a pass.

[Kittet3]

My thoughts, which I stated before: We aren't there to interrogate the disputing OP and we aren't there to make it personal to the disputing OP. Since flagging is about illegitimate time stamps and not cheating, it shouldn't matter if OP did use save files for all the trophies as long as they were popped in a manner that is possible that other people could replicate legitimately. It also messes up other disputes since the information isn't put out there and people now assume the disputing OP's pattern of trophies is flaggable. 

[Shadiochao]

Any evidence should be presented.

 

If somebody who actually cheated their trophies is able to latch onto the explanation and say "Yeah that was what I did" even if they're lying, it doesn't matter. Because if the explanation means the trophy list is possible without cheating, that makes it flag that shouldn't have been added in the first place.

 

 

[acasser]

1 hour ago, turpinator1986 said:

I love your analogy. Well written too. However I fear it’s just not relevant here because in a court you are innocent until proven guilty. However on these dispute threads you are guilty as charged with little to no credit put into any explanation you may offer. 

 

If the American legal system is your comparison, you're looking at the wrong part.

 

It's still innocent until proven guilty, but the dispute itself is NOT the trial.  The dispute is the appeal of a guilty verdict already handed down, with the original flag report submitted by whomever being your indictment and the ruling of the flag team being the trial itself.  It's "trial in absentia", which itself isn't a wonderful thing, but that's what we're left with when trying to find any number of people who have been flagged might well be impossible for one reason or another as to do a "trial" in timely fashion.

 

So when the dispute/appeal opens, the player in question has already been found guilty.  The evidence had already been weighed and a guilty verdict had already been handed down by the flag teams.  And to transpose back to your paradigm of the American legal system, it's now up to the appellant to demonstrate why the original trial should be overturned.  Which itself is a pretty high bar, but it's something we've seen happen often enough when there is good reason to believe that the flag shouldn't have stuck in the first place.

[Dwightsarmy14]

I think it's fine how it is now. most cases is pretty clearly save files or edited time stamps. What you guys are talking about were someone could be innocent happens very rarely.

[turpinator1986]

49 minutes ago, acasser said:

 

If the American legal system is your comparison, you're looking at the wrong part.

 

It's still innocent until proven guilty, but the dispute itself is NOT the trial.  The dispute is the appeal of a guilty verdict already handed down, with the original flag report submitted by whomever being your indictment and the ruling of the flag team being the trial itself.  It's "trial in absentia", which itself isn't a wonderful thing, but that's what we're left with when trying to find any number of people who have been flagged might well be impossible for one reason or another as to do a "trial" in timely fashion.

 

So when the dispute/appeal opens, the player in question has already been found guilty.  The evidence had already been weighed and a guilty verdict had already been handed down by the flag teams.  And to transpose back to your paradigm of the American legal system, it's now up to the appellant to demonstrate why the original trial should be overturned.  Which itself is a pretty high bar, but it's something we've seen happen often enough when there is good reason to believe that the flag shouldn't have stuck in the first place.

I don’t really understand why you’ve assumed I’m American when one click of a mouse would have told you I’m british...but that’s whatever. Your post feels like you’re arguing against my point but actually you’ve just reworded exactly what I said. That’s my point. These disputes has already tarnished these people as guilty and don’t give them a chance to even present evidence of threat innocence. Dunno if I didn’t explain myself properly or what but literally what you said there is exactly what I wanted to say. 

[MMDE]

2 hours ago, Shadiochao said:

Any evidence should be presented.

 

If somebody who actually cheated their trophies is able to latch onto the explanation and say "Yeah that was what I did" even if they're lying, it doesn't matter. Because if the explanation means the trophy list is possible without cheating, that makes it flag that shouldn't have been added in the first place.

 

 

 

I can make up some pretty inane stories for some of the people who gets taken off the leaderboards. I'm more interested in what actually happened.

 

A fun little example would be the Jak games. Quite a lot of people have been flagged for Jak 3 I think. Many because they got precursor orbs too fast etc. Maybe they knew about the cheats before it was made public? It's possible.

 

Or what about those people who had barely played a game before the mask generator for Army of Two: The 40th Day went down, certainly hadn't played that game, never was on the profile, got their first trophy for the game this year, 5 years later.

https://psnprofiles.com/trophy/518-army-of-two-the-40th-day/45-diy-pmc

https://psnprofiles.com/trophy/782-army-of-two-the-40th-day/45-diy-pmc

 

Or what about those who copy other's trophy lists? I've even talked with people in the chat who takes money for doing this for people. Of course they make small changes.

 

Or what about those who complete each difficulty of CoD Classic 10-30 minutes apart?

 

It's of course all possible, but I rather want to know what happened.

Edited April 15, 2018 by MMDE