(Discussion)should you get flagged for late syncs?

[Astray404]

When the user syncs late, creating some abnormal time-stamps, especially for some online games, it would be hard to differentiate if he/she used CFW or he/she forgot to sync. In short, for the flag I would say yes, but the user could always show his/her innocence by submitting evidences and remove the flag, so this might not be an issue.

 

In order to avoid such situation, I would suggest sync your PS3/vita trophies everyday before turn them off

Edited May 27, 2020 by Astray404

[VigilantCrow]

1 minute ago, danceswithsloths said:

I shouldn't have to change the way I enjoy my hobby just to avoid accusations from paranoid idiots.

Nobody is telling you to change the way you enjoy your hobby. You're choosing to use a service that's outside of PSN. Like I said, feel free to go somewhere else if you don't like it.

 

[charxsetsuna]

Just now, B1rvine said:

 

That's pretty much the issue in a nutshell.

 

The real question is "how should CFW usage be defined as actionable?"

 

Also, people need to stop with the mentality that not being on a leaderboard is "punishment." Not being on a leaderboard shouldn't necessarily mean you're a cheater, just that you haven't met the requirements of the privilege. Rules should also be malleable over time, as new situations occur, or for many other reasons.

 

 

 

Can you hear yourself? This is gatekeeping nonsense, your telling people who are doing their hobby in a completely legit way that if they want to be on the leaderboards then they have to do their hobby in the approved way.  

Hobbies are about fun remember, if they are having fun in the completely legit way they currently are then who are you to tell them they are doing their hobby in a inferior way?

[danceswithsloths]

4 minutes ago, VigilantCrow said:

Nobody is telling you to change the way you enjoy your hobby. You're choosing to use a service that's outside of PSN. Like I said, feel free to go somewhere else if you don't like it.

 

Ah yes, how many good websites have died to this asinine mentality?

 

'We're gonna make some severely unpopular changes, if you don't like it, go somewhere else!'

'...Where did all our users go?'

Edited May 27, 2020 by danceswithsloths

[Beyondthegrave07]

1 hour ago, Mesopithecus said:

There are so many legitimate reasons why someone might sync late, that no I don't think you should be flagged for it.  Some of those reasons might be deeply personal too -  I had a family member who was serving overseas and played on their console offline whilst deployed for 9 months, so only synced when they got settled back home.  I feel like having to provide proof of that if they got flagged would be a huge overreach.  There are countless other scenarios like this too, there isn't a "one size fits all" approach.

 

To the people who think that purposefully late syncing is skewing the sites stats, well the stats have already been messed up (and are mostly arbitrary, like DLC rarity stats) for a long time anyway.  I mean, look how long auto-updating for some accounts have been turned off - there are a lot of accounts still sat on "updating soon" 

I think that's the main problem with all of this. I've had times in college where I was away from home and would come home during holiday/breaks and game at home. Did I sync my trophies immediately? Probably not. I'm sure I have had times where I late synced too and I'm sure countless others have been in similar situations to what I described or what you described.

 

On the other hand, the CRT doesn't want the leaderboards to be full of cheaters and neither should anyone else in this community. If I saw someone sync Resistance 2 online trophies today, I'd without a doubt think it was CFW usage. Is it possible that they left their PS3 in their closet, unsynced for 8 years? Yeah, I guess. But how likely is it? Miniscule. At that point, I think evidence would be needed. I could give a dozen of other examples like this, and not just for online games either.

 

I'm not saying let's witch hunt people who late sync or anything like that, but I think we have to have some sort of realistic expectation or the LB is just going to be full of cheaters who are clever enough to hide their tracks and can shield behind legit excuses (even though it's not true).

[B1rvine]

2 minutes ago, charxsetsuna said:

Can you hear yourself? This is gatekeeping nonsense, your telling people who are doing their hobby in a completely legit way that if they want to be on the leaderboards then they have to do their hobby in the approved way.  

 

Thats what rules are. Using your own save file is also legitimate. 

 

There's a difference between "being tracked" and "being ranked."

 

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by B1rvine

[charxsetsuna]

Just now, B1rvine said:

 

Thats what rules are. Using your own save file is also legitimate. 

No because your CRT you think that your opinion is the only one that matters.

 

People go to college without their consoles, people lose their internet connection for many reasons, some people dont even have internet and rely on places like libraries. There are so many reasons why people could late sync meanwhile save file usage is always intentional ,this isnt. You can late sync by accident, you cannot use a save by accident.

[GizMo_The_Great]

I think on a whole that Sony need to take an interest in people who hack their trophy lists. 
 

I know to them it is not such a big deal, but they make more money off trophy hunters specifically, than casual gamers. They need to realise that Trophy Hunting on a whole is a hobby people care about. In fact in some cases, notably those in the top positions, trophy hunting is technically what is putting food on their table.

 

Trophy tracking websites do a good job, but until Sony take a more active approach to people who hack their lists, then you’ll still have issues. 
 

I personally don’t get why anyone would hack to get trophies, it defeats the point. Earning them is what makes them enjoyable. But clearly some people put more stock in the amount they have than the actual enjoyment of earning them.

[Velvet]

5 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

 

That's pretty much the issue in a nutshell.

 

The real question is "how should CFW usage be defined as actionable?"

 

Also, people need to stop with the mentality that not being on a leaderboard is "punishment." Not being on a leaderboard shouldn't necessarily mean you're a cheater, just that you haven't met the requirements of the privilege. Rules should also be malleable over time, as new situations occur, or for many other reasons.

 

 

 

 

I come in peace, promise.

 

My main argument with this is the scale of it. You're asking an entire website of thousands of gamers to theoretically change how/when they sync, all to catch the one guy (I know it's not just 1, but you get what I mean). There's gotta be something else that can be done to catch them. I know you guys are trying to find a way to make it easier for the CRT, but this just feels like the wrong approach to me personally. 

 

16 minutes ago, VigilantCrow said:

I don't see the problem. Being flagged isn't the same as being disciplined.

If someone doesn't like the procedure, either go somewhere else or stop doing the action that causes the flag to get triggered.

 

Sounds like whining about a nitpick, for the sake of getting attention.

 

 

 

Getting flagged is one thing, getting unflagged is a different story. "As long as you're innocent, you should be fine" doesn't have a stand here. Those of us who haven't done anything wrong don't want to go through the game of "will it [the flag] be lifted or not" because of something as silly as not syncing your trophies right away. 

There's just gotta be another way, imo.

[DeepEyes7]

6 minutes ago, charxsetsuna said:

No because your CRT you think that your opinion is the only one that matters.

 

People go to college without their consoles, people lose their internet connection for many reasons, some people dont even have internet and rely on places like libraries. There are so many reasons why people could late sync meanwhile save file usage is always intentional ,this isnt. You can late sync by accident, you cannot use a save by accident.

 

Taking your own savefile from your main PS3 to another one because you can't save in the cloud and then unlocking trophies in seconds can be done by accident too but people got accostumed to see that as cheating... I don't know why late syncing couldn't be treated on the same way, nobody is talking of 1 week late syncing, maybe one year as someone said above is more than enough...

 

2 minutes ago, GizMo_The_Great said:

I think on a whole that Sony need to take an interest in people who hack their trophy lists. 
 

I know to them it is not such a big deal, but they make more money off trophy hunters specifically, than casual gamers. They need to realise that Trophy Hunting on a whole is a hobby people care about. In fact in some cases, notably those in the top positions, trophy hunting is technically what is putting food on their table.

 

Trophy tracking websites do a good job, but until Sony take a more active approach to people who hack their lists, then you’ll still have issues. 
 

I personally don’t get why anyone would hack to get trophies, it defeats the point. Earning them is what makes them enjoyable. But clearly some people put more stock in the amount they have than the actual enjoyment of earning them.

 

I'm very sure that the day that Sony put their hand in all this everything will be f***** up forever

Edited May 27, 2020 by DeepEyes7

[charxsetsuna]

This is no longer a website for a hobby its become a bloody cult.

We are literally flagging people who have done nothing wrong other than not doing things in the" flawless perfect way". For not doing our hobby the same way as everyone else like clones its ridiculous. 

[MichMasteR]

4 minutes ago, charxsetsuna said:

This is no longer a website for a hobby its become a bloody cult.

We are literally flagging people who have done nothing wrong other than not doing things in the" flawless perfect way". For not doing our hobby the same way as everyone else like clones its ridiculous. 

 

Trophy hunting and achievement hunting have become a bloody cult in general, not just this website

[DeepEyes7]

2 minutes ago, charxsetsuna said:

This is no longer a website for a hobby its become a bloody cult.

We are literally flagging people who have done nothing wrong other than not doing things in the" flawless perfect way". For not doing our hobby the same way as everyone else like clones its ridiculous. 

 

Maybe I'm talking bs here because I'm not too into it but isn't PSNP one of the most clean/respected LB and the one that other sites (official sites and unofficial...) follow to check stats and things? If it is like that, then yeah, this isn't a website for a hobby anymore, you can't ask an official soccer website to let you play with your hands because you just like it...

[ZitMeatloaf]

7 minutes ago, Beyondthegrave07 said:

Is it possible that they left their PS3 in their closet, unsynced for 8 years? Yeah, I guess. But how likely is it? Miniscule.

While I see your point, I'm not sure the likelihood is as minuscule as some people think. There are a lot of situations that could cause long delays in syncing.

 

Looking at this through my own life's lens (as we all are), I didn't turn on my PS3 for 5+ years after my first kid was born. If I'd had any unsynced trophies which then synced 5 years later, then I could have been flagged for multiple games and the flags would have stuck. While I don't care about the leaderboards all that much, I DO care about being labeled a cheater. And despite reassurances from the CRT and other mods that being flagged doesn't necessarily mean you're a cheater, there are plenty of members on this site (I'd wager a majority) who equate leaderboard removal with cheating.

[hBLOXs]

3 minutes ago, DeepEyes7 said:

 

Maybe I'm talking bs here because I'm not too into it but isn't PSNP one of the most clean/respected LB and the one that other sites (official sites and unofficial...) follow to check stats and things? If it is like that, then yeah, this isn't a website for a hobby anymore, you can't ask an official soccer website to let you play with your hands because you just like it...

Except you got it backwards.

This is the official soccer website asking us to only pay attention to goal scores done by players’ right legs coz the left legs aren’t covered by their cameras and are therefore not 100% trackable by them to be legit.

You think that would fly?

[charxsetsuna]

It's very telling that the poll is heavily decided on no but because a member of the CRT disagrees that means the thoughts of the members doesnt matter.

[Joker-Kun890]

This seems like a change that's going to be much more negative than positive. I see it affecting alot more legit users than non-legit ones. I'd hate to see more users leave over stuff like this. 

 

Does the site have a clearly explained page listing all the custom "rules." I think we need a constitution at this point. ?

 

As for my own anecdote. I often forget to sync my living room ps3. I've even had a few timestamps change because I've gotten the same trophy on multiple systems (I. E. RDR.) I own 4 PS3's, and I often bounce around to which one I use (bedroom, living room, game room, and then one strictly used for boosting.) 

 

I also have a broken ps3 in a box somewhere that very likely has a handful of trophies I never synced (for example, I'm nearly certain I got the online trophy for the ones hasbro game night game, but never synced.) Don't worry though, I'll likely never bother fixing it. ?

[Starcade_Legend]

I’ve noticed some members mentioning if there was proof or it’s an *extremely* old game that those are clearly obvious ends of the spectrum of non-flaggable/flag fable scenarios for late syncs.  But...there are different angles to this that might be missed.

 

Let’s look at Resistance 2, for example.  If I were to sync a PS3 with my Resistance 2 save today, with a screenshot of 10,002 kills on my stats screen with my user name and date (let’s say...8 years ago) on the bottom of the pic...would I be clear?  Sergen had mentioned an example of Fight Night Round 4 in this thread.  Outside of getting official detailed online records from SONY regarding my account at the time of playing online for both of those games...is there any proof that would make one more ‘legit’ of an example than the other? THAT...is the question regarding trophy sync timeframes for admin.  This is an issue that has (seemingly) been surrounded by a degree of ‘smoke and mirrors’ by disputes ending with ‘Well, I don’t/do believe you’ or ‘it’s just too long of a gap between syncs’.  There’s but so long you can keep using those talking points as means you settle disputes before this site’s  integrity becomes challenged.

 

Because...let me tell you, in all fairness: if I were to (completely hypothetical situation, everyone) suddenly sync a Motorstorm: Pacific Rift 100% trophy list on my profile from a PS3 I used a decade ago, with video evidence of me winning my last online race, getting the highest rank trophy to pop and the platinum after that, with my username and date in the video (which can all be manipulated by over-the-counter-means, by the way), and I get banned for CFW because of the loosey-goosey/wishy-washy guidelines set on this issue, from a website that generates income from features like their well-filtered and heavily scrutinized leaderboards...well, let’s just say this issue would not come to a conclusion in the disputes section.  And that (completely hypothetical) scenario (or at least parts of it, anyway) knocking on the doorstep of this site is more of an inevitability, than a possibility.  This issue gets even MORE exacerbated if backwards compatibility for PS3 becomes a reality on PS5.  ?

 

There are tools that CRT have/use to indicate WHEN trophies have been sync’d to a profile and/or when they’ve been changed/altered, correct?  A few of you have given off vibes as if they should ‘close their eyes’ to the obvious visual issue to ones’ trophy list because of the late sync.  Dude...?

 

I don’t mean to come off brash or smug.  But people who look at this with an unbiased lens and can see the cogs in the machine turning (especially admin) know that a solid rule on this issue is in the tea leaves.

 

Now if you all would excuse me, I’m going to go work on my Killzone 2 video I made/doctored of me getting platinum ‘8 years ago’, before I sync my trophies.

 

I’m sorry, that was in bad taste...?

[B1rvine]

  

 

You are not eligible to be ranked until agreeing to the following rules:

(until then, you are free to track your own progress as you see fit)

 

To help verify standardized play styles, keep fair competition among users, attempt to close loop holes in cheating.........

 

Edit. I guessing most of you all think speedrun.com leadership must be horrible horrible dictatorial oppressors, as their leaderboard inclusion requires about 20 things, including video recording the entire run... 

 

Edit2 : Nobody seems to want to answer my question on how to "define" CFW usage as actionable.

 

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by B1rvine

[charxsetsuna]

2 minutes ago, Joker-Kun890 said:

This seems like a change that's going to be much more negative than positive. I see it affecting alot more legit users than non-legit ones. I'd hate to see more users leave over stuff like this. 

 

Does the site have a clearly explained page listing all the custom "rules." I think we need a constitution at this point. 

 

As for my own anecdote. I often forget to sync my living room ps3. I've even had a few timestamps change because I've gotten the same trophy on multiple systems (I. E. RDR.) I own 4 PS3's, and I often bounce around to which one I use (bedroom, living room, game room, and then one strictly used for boosting.) 

 

I also have a broken ps3 in a box somewhere that very likely has a handful of trophies I never synced (for example, I'm nearly certain I got the online trophy for the ones hasbro game night game, but never synced.) Don't worry though, I'll likely never bother fixing it. 

Be careful with the Hasbro one if you do fix it, I think that one being unobtainable means your going to need really good evidence to get you unflagged.

[DeepEyes7]

5 minutes ago, hBLOXs said:

Except you got it backwards.

This is the official soccer website asking us to only pay attention to goal scores done by players’ right legs coz the left legs aren’t covered by their cameras and are therefore not 100% trackable by them to be legit.

You think that would fly?

 

You are right, then it is the same when a goal was marked as legit when it was on off-side or with the hand... So what did the FIFA? Invented the VAR just to have more means to check the validity of goals... And fans/players liked it? NO (affects the flow of game, the referee can be mistaken too, corruption, blah, blah)... So the same problem we are having here... When you try to make things more legit nobody is happy... But when you doesn't then people only complain about cheaters... This is a never ending story...

[acasser]

2 hours ago, danceswithsloths said:

'Guilty until proven innocent'

 

Which isn't the case here.  Because if it was, you'd be flagged as soon as the site started tracking you.  Let me summarize what I said last night in the dispute thread that spawned this sub-thread:

 

The original flag report is your indictment.  The CRT crew reviewing that flag report is your trial -- a trial that more closely mimics Grand Jury proceedings (if we're using the American judicial system as our "model") than anything else -- but that's where "guilt" or "innocence" gets determined and the CRT crew is your judge (and/or jury).

 

Disputing a flag is an appeal of a guilty verdict.  And if we're going to carry the American judicial system metaphor forward through this, the burden of proof has now shifted to the appealing party to demonstrate that the original verdict was rendered incorrectly.

[DaivRules]

4 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

  

 

You are not eligible to be ranked until agreeing to the following rules:

(until then, you are free to track your own progress)

 

To help verify standardized play styles, keep fair competition among users, attempt to close loop holes in cheating.........

 

 

This would be hilarious (in the sick sadistic way) to kick everyone off the leaderboards until they see and acknowledge this agreement before they obtain a ranking. Build the leaderboards back up from an Opt-In standpoint. Something tells me this is completely unrealistic.

 

I would need to take that month off to avoid the drama in the forums.

[Joker-Kun890]

2 minutes ago, DaivRules said:

 

This would be hilarious (in the sick sadistic way) to kick everyone off the leaderboards until they see and acknowledge this agreement before they obtain a ranking. Build the leaderboards back up from an Opt-In standpoint. Something tells me this is completely unrealistic.

 

I would need to take that month off to avoid the drama in the forums.

 

I actually don't mind the idea of a well defined terms of use. You could just set it to be opt-out rather than opt-in. Anyone who doesn't agree with the terms can just opt-out of the leaderboard. 

 

At the same time, seems like it could be alot of unnecessary work. 

[PhyrxianLibrarin]

Since this thread is devolving into shitposting against the CRTs, and will likely be locked soon...

 

If the issue is that the site/flagging system cannot tell the difference between CFW and super-late syncing, I can totally sympathize with the attempt to keep the leaderboard "pure" by assuming guilt rather than innocence. That takes the stance that it's better to kick a legit person off the board, than allow a cheater on the board. And yes, that is not how the US justice system works, where they take the stance that it's better to let a criminal free than put an innocent person in prison (let's not argue how successful that is in this thread).

 

But holy smokes, getting kicked off the leaderboard isn't the same as being thrown in prison. I think it's totally reasonable to say "Please remember that we do not work for Sony and are unaffiliated with PSN, and therefore we don't 100% know whether someone is cheating their trophies, so we are being extra-cautious about the leaderboard", as that's the only way the leaderboard means anything. If they took the stance of "allow everyone on unless we can prove they cheated", they'd have to allow nearly everyone back on.

 

Edit: Actually, re-building the leaderboard as an opt-in feature with a separate TOS is a great idea, do you guys have engineers on staff?

Edited May 27, 2020 by PhyrxianLibrarin