Did Joel Really...? (Spoilers)

[Alayaes]

1 hour ago, TJ_Solo said:

 

The game showed us 4-5 locations that raised livestock and grew their own food.  The people at established settlements are not lacking in food or protein. 

 

Steriods aren't needed for muscle growth. 

 

From some of these comments I wonder what game they played and how they manage to cope with in reality when they can't just toss around uninformed accusations at people. 

 

While it's entirely possible for someone in this world to look the way Abby does, I can at least agree that it's somewhat implausible. Especially for a female without any testosterone/juice/supplements. 

 

It takes incredible amounts of dedication to achieve the physiques of the examples given, especially the body actor used for Abby. She is a CrossFit (lol...) world champion, aka, a professional job where they focus on it 100% with professional nutrition calculating macros on a daily basis. Could Abby be a world-class athlete? Yes. Can it be agreed upon that it's implausible? Yeah, it could. Benching 185/205 does not make her a world-class powerlifter/bodybuilder like her Colleen Fotsch mocap actress. 

 

It also involves supplements such as creatine, etc. Also, lifting heavy makes you a powerlifter, not a bodybuilder. You can look small but have tons of strength, and vice versa. Abby is a bodybuilder, and that's a sport that takes tremendous dedication; especially for a female who is biologically at a disadvantage versus a male. And it's not like it would benefit her tremendously. A female human being that is strength trained is still going to be at a disadvantage against an overwhelming percentage of males, so she'd be much better off training survival skills and using her wit/intelligence as opposed to raw strength.

 

Again, it could be possible that she calculates her daily food intake to about 3,000+ calories a day at perfect macros, limits her bodyfat % to 15-20, found tons of creatine, carries protein snacks with her, and dedicated her entire life to it. It just makes it implausible with all the distractions present.

[djb5f]

42 minutes ago, Najzer0 said:

Did the characters "act" in a reasonable way? Yes, most of the time (Abby going rouge and saving that boy is something I can't get my head around, but nvmd, Ellie was acting according to revenge, bitterness and the lost chance to settle things with joel.

 

All that gender hatred is something I do not care much about, I really did enjoy playing Lara Croft when it was around 120 Triagons (namely 20 for her edgy boobs) to display her... and I did not dis-enjoy TLOU because of a female character.

 

 

Yeah, that was the part that bugged me most.  The Lev/Yara storyline just would not go away and did not fit Abby’s revenge tour.  I still think it was an effort to humanize her for her to go against her WLF organization in favor of those two but it seemed out of place.  Forced and heavy-handed.

 

Loved the story overall and the framework of it.  During the first game, I actually thought of damn, that poor doctor just trying to do his part to save humanity.  Perfect for the sequel.  I love Joel as much as the next person and accept he is a flawed hero.  You have more empathy for those with human weaknesses anyway.  The fact that he was killed early did not bother me one iota.  It just raised the stakes, much like a Game of Thrones episode, anyone is fair game.

 

If Abby looked like Lara Croft, she might be more popular than Ellie ?.  They had to make her a hunter type, even if they did it to an extreme (overboard IMO).

 

 

3 minutes ago, Alayaes said:

While it's entirely possible for someone in this world to look the way Abby does, I can at least agree that it's somewhat implausible. Especially for a female without any testosterone/juice/supplements. 

 

It takes incredible amounts of dedication to achieve the physiques of the examples given, especially the body actor used for Abby. She is a CrossFit (lol...) world champion, aka, a professional job where they focus on it 100% with professional nutrition calculating macros on a daily basis. Could Abby be a world-class athlete? Yes. Can it be agreed upon that it's implausible? Yeah, it could. Benching 185/205 does not make her a world-class powerlifter/bodybuilder like her Colleen Fotsch mocap actress. 

 

It also involves supplements such as creatine, etc. Also, lifting heavy makes you a powerlifter, not a bodybuilder. You can look small but have tons of strength, and vice versa. Abby is a bodybuilder, and that's a sport that takes tremendous dedication; especially for a female who is biologically at a disadvantage versus a male. And it's not like it would benefit her tremendously. A female human being that is strength trained is still going to be at a disadvantage against an overwhelming percentage of males, so she'd be much better off training survival skills and using her wit/intelligence as opposed to raw strength.

 

Again, it could be possible that she calculates her daily food intake to about 3,000+ calories a day at perfect macros, limits her bodyfat % to 15-20, found tons of creatine, carries protein snacks with her, and dedicated her entire life to it. It just makes it implausible with all the distractions present.

Very well-stated.  It is really a full time training commitment for that with all of the proper nutrition and supplements like Creatine.  That calorie count needed would not have gone over well in a zombie apocalypse when resources are not forever plentiful.

 

No big issue with the actress they got to play her, it was just a little exaggerated given the environment they were in.  It is what it is, a video game but they went over the top with it.

Edited July 7, 2020 by djb5f

[TJ_Solo]

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While it's entirely possible for someone in this world to look the way Abby does, I can at least agree that it's somewhat implausible. Especially for a female without any testosterone/juice/supplements. 

 

Again, not true. Abby isn't "huge". She is buff and strong but not to an extreme. It is plausible and has been done many times over without the illegal crap you're hyping.

 

Quote

While it's entirely possible for someone in this world to look the way Abby does, I can at least agree that it's somewhat implausible. Especially for a female without any testosterone/juice/supplements. 

 

Except she is dedicated and part of a group the is also dedicated to some level of fitness that they track openly gains.

 

Quote

Again, it could be possible that she calculates her daily food intake to about 3,000+ calories a day at perfect macros, limits her bodyfat % to 15-20, found tons of creatine, carries protein snacks with her, and dedicated her entire life to it. It just makes it implausible with all the distractions present.

 

I never said perfect macros or anything about her bmi but given their setup, eating clean is almost a given.

Again, their setup at the WLF wasn't that chaotic even during the current situation. They had downtime, exercise time, shooting range, routes to run, etc. They weren't wandering around Seattle scrounging and constantly running from infected. They had a routine. 

 

 

Edited July 7, 2020 by TJ_Solo

[funboy1246]

honestly despite whether a vacine a cure whatever could have been made from elle's sacrifice. do you guys honestly think for one second that the fireflies would just walk down the street and go all oprah the survivors? you get a vacine you get a vacine everyone gets a vacine? no, they'd hold it over every outposts head and offer it to the populace IF they overthrew the governemt running the safe zones. and then once they were in power it would only be destributed to those "loyal" to the cause or those that they deem worthy. kid with cancer? he doesn't need the cure he'll probably die soon anyway. 80 year old woman? nah thatd be a waste. some one who spoke out against us? hell no. They'd weaponize it. plain and simple.

[TJ_Solo]

26 minutes ago, funboy1246 said:

honestly despite whether a vacine a cure whatever could have been made from elle's sacrifice. do you guys honestly think for one second that the fireflies would just walk down the street and go all oprah the survivors? you get a vacine you get a vacine everyone gets a vacine? no, they'd hold it over every outposts head and offer it to the populace IF they overthrew the governemt running the safe zones. and then once they were in power it would only be destributed to those "loyal" to the cause or those that they deem worthy. kid with cancer? he doesn't need the cure he'll probably die soon anyway. 80 year old woman? nah thatd be a waste. some one who spoke out against us? hell no. They'd weaponize it. plain and simple.

 

That would make sense if the infection was something that merely killed or weakened the host. Allowing or making people turn into Infected creates an uncontrollable killer that is deadly to everyone regardless of there being a vaccine to prevent a person from being turned. The type of totalitarian control you're saying would happen with a cure in hand is actually what TLOU1 showed was happening under the current military force in all major cities. 

 

The Fireflies maybe making a cure was the point to the plot in the first game. They were the "good" guys in the story, at least up until the point that Joel decided that getting guns for smuggler a person across the country wasn't what he really wanted.

Edited July 7, 2020 by TJ_Solo

[PFinchen]

1 hour ago, djb5f said:

It is a video game but right.  Nathan Drake is adored and done far worse!

You guys are never going to believe what I tell you about Tommy Vercetti. 

[emailking]

With Drake you can argue he never started a fight at least (I don't think).

[funboy1246]

 

10 minutes ago, emailking said:

With Drake you can argue he never started a fight at least (I don't think).

actually if i remember right at the end of uncharted 4. they'd won essentially he didn't have to go after rafe, but i believe he said he wanted to finish it.

[Alayaes]

3 hours ago, TJ_Solo said:

 

Again, not true. Abby isn't "huge". She is buff and strong but not to an extreme. It is plausible and has been done many times over without the illegal crap you're hyping.

 

 

Except she is dedicated and part of a group the is also dedicated to some level of fitness that they track openly gains.

 

 

I never said perfect macros or anything about her bmi but given their setup, eating clean is almost a given.

Again, their setup at the WLF wasn't that chaotic even during the current situation. They had downtime, exercise time, shooting range, routes to run, etc. They weren't wandering around Seattle scrounging and constantly running from infected. They had a routine. 

 

 

Abby is huge. For a female she is incredibly muscular. Her mocap actress is a top level elite athlete. Look her up. That's not impossible to attain at all, but it's implausible given the context.

 

Creatine and supplements are not illegal; you can buy those at Walmart. Neither are steroids (You just can't use them in certain sports competitions). With a body like hers, perfect macros and nutrition simply have to be a part of your routine. It's inevitable. You can't hit the gym 3 times a week as a female and expect those results without highly customized nutrition. Her BMI would be largely out of whack as it is with all muscular people because it doesn't account for lean mass vs body fat. Also, eating clean rarely gets you gains like that as a female. She would have to eat like she's bulking, which can be far from clean.

[TJ_Solo]

Quote

Abby is huge. For a female she is incredibly muscular

 

The female brutes are bigger. Abby is muscular but she isn't so big that only steroids can explain it

 

Quote

. Her mocap actress is a top level elite athlete. 

 

Her mocap actress and VA is Laura Bailey. 
I've already talked about Abby's body model. 

 

 

[emailking]

She's not that big at all. The only difference between her model now and and 4 years ago are that her arms are bigger and her hair is longer. We don't even see her legs or abs, just arms. Maybe that's all she lifts for all you know (she's got the free weights by her bed). Even if she was huge, it's not at all implausible that she could achieve that.

[djb5f]

17 minutes ago, emailking said:

She's not that big at all. The only difference between her model now and and 4 years ago are that her arms are bigger and her hair is longer. We don't even see her legs or abs, just arms. Maybe that's all she lifts for all you know (she's got the free weights by her bed). Even if she was huge, it's not at all implausible that she could achieve that.

I think that is part of the issue.  Her arms turned into tree trunks but her rest of the body did not change much.  It was nearly a Bruce Banner to the Incredible Hulk type of change.  
 
It is like the old joke about the guys who skip leg days lol at the gym.  
 

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by djb5f

[Alayaes]

32 minutes ago, TJ_Solo said:

 

The female brutes are bigger. Abby is muscular but she isn't so big that only steroids can explain it

 

 

She wouldn't have to do steroids. She would just have to be extraordinarily dedicated. I think a lot of people underestimate how difficult it is for females to achieve/maintain such a ripped physique.

 

As I said, it's very possible. But it's not that farfetched for people to think it's somewhat implausible.

 

In the end, who cares? I still hate the character.

Edited July 8, 2020 by Alayaes

[TJ_Solo]

10 minutes ago, Alayaes said:

She wouldn't have to do steroids. She would just have to be extraordinarily dedicated. I think a lot of people underestimate how difficult it is for females to achieve/maintain such a ripped physique.

 

As I said, it's very possible. But it's not that farfetched for people to think it's somewhat implausible.

 

In the end, who cares? I still hate the character.

 

Well I am not talking about whether or not it's far-fetched that some people think that it is implausible. I described the details, quotes, and world building ND used to explain Abby's size.

It isn't theory or maybes from me. ND told the story and added corresponding details.

[ArmoredSnowman]

On 7/6/2020 at 10:11 AM, sepheroithisgod said:

Please keep it civ

As it gets commented on on the PS4 Discord, my feelings are this: If Joel had allowed Ellie to be sacrificed, the result could've been any of these:

 

1. Ellie dies, but the vaccine could not be made.

2. Ellie dies, the vaccine is made, but the fireflies keep it to themselves. Knowledge of it remains hidden.

3. Ellie dies, the vaccine is made, but the fireflies keep it to themselves. Scars and other communities realize this and conduct conflicts with the Fireflies to gain the vaccine. Vaccine is lost.

4. Ellie dies, the vaccine is made, the fireflies want to distribute it, but there's no trust between them and other communities.

5. Ellie dies, the vaccine is made, the fireflies want to distribute it, there is a truce in place between the communities, but there's no way to effectively distribute it. 

 

That said, the only real community that could really distribute it is Jackson, due to their welcoming tendencies (which is what got Joel killed.) Considering this, even if a vaccine could be made and distributed, people like the WLFs would just invade them anyway. They had a patrol group come just to capture Joel, so imagine what they'd do to have the vaccine for themselves. Isaac seemed calm and collected at the beginning, but was a lunatic by the end. Another thing is, it's statistically impossible for Ellie to be the only immune person in the world. There's several reasons why only she is known:

 

1. Other immune people know how valuable their bodies are, and would rather survive.

2. Other immune people know how valuable their bodies are, but have to share it.

3. Other immune people haven't been bitten yet, so they don't know they're immune.

4. Other immune people have been bitten, but killed themselves, before they realize they were immune. 

5. Other immune people have been bitten, realized they're immune, but were subsequently killed for have a bite mark.

6. Other immune people have been bitten, had no time to realize they're immune, and were subsequently killed for have a bite mark.

 

We discuss this controversial stuff on Discord all the time. As @Dreakon13 said, there exists another outcome for the vaccine: Many people in today's world are too stupid or self-centered to wear masks to help reduce the chances of their coronavirus from spreading to others -- considering there isn't a vaccine or cure for it. So, then, in the world of TLoU, there would also exist idiots who would rather see the vaccine destroyed or made unobtainable, so that humanity has to suffer to prevail in the world, since the cure is out of mankind's reach yet again. 

[emailking]

29 minutes ago, ArmoredSnowman said:

 Another thing is, it's statistically impossible for Ellie to be the only immune person in the world. There's several reasons why only she is known:

 

From the way they talked about it, it's not that she's immune, but that she's carrying a mutated strain that causes no symptoms and isn't contagious, and other strains can't take hold. So she's fine. She was bit by someone that was clearly symptomatic, so it mutated within her. So she probably is the only one like this unless someone else got very lucky with a mutation like that.

Edited July 8, 2020 by emailking

[Lonemankane]

Hey when the next last of us comes out let's ask ND to call it the Golf of us part 3 so we can all plan golf with our own Joel heads Ellie gets the head of Joel's daughter while Abby gets Joels. then add in loot boxes for more heads and outfits, oh wait am sorry i mean surprise mechanics that are for jak and daxter heads, drake heads and even some of other characters from other games like rachet and maybe the fetus from death stranding. then sell the game for £70

 

Everyone would love it and buy it would be a big hit a full 11 out of 10 there.

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by KANERKB

[Dreakon13]

47 minutes ago, ArmoredSnowman said:

As @Dreakon13 said, there exists another outcome for the vaccine: Many people in today's world are too stupid or self-centered to wear masks to help reduce the chances of their coronavirus from spreading to others -- considering there isn't a vaccine or cure for it. So, then, in the world of TLoU, there would also exist idiots who would rather see the vaccine destroyed or made unobtainable, so that humanity has to suffer to prevail in the world, since the cure is out of mankind's reach yet again. 

 

As much of a cop out as it is, the general stupidity of people can explain away a lot of inconsistencies in a game like this. Sadly we're living it to an extent, and it's believeable.

 

Though my point was more... if people in the real world actually somehow don't believe or don't care that masks contain the spread of COVID-19 (along with the million other crackpot theories out there), is it really so crazy that people in TLOU believe a vaccine is a feasible endgame despite the obvious scientific and logistical issues? Especially given how awful their world is, and how desperate they probably are for any kind of hope.

Edited July 8, 2020 by Dreakon13

[AJ_Radio]

Only so fitting that with the COVID-19 virus still out there wrecking havoc, The Last of Us Part II is by far the most popular game of the past few weeks.

 

So all that controversy back in late April, the unprofessional behavior of Neil Druckmann, and the company itself taking a huge hit from the backfire really didn't amount to too much. Countless people have already said this is a fantastic game.

 

It's probably good I wasn't here a few weeks ago when these threads were generating the most hits, because I probably would of popped a blood vessel in my head.

 

Sad times we live in. Makes me hesitant to play Days Gone, even if that isn't nearly as good as The Last of Us or the sequel.

[BlackTorito]

7 hours ago, Alayaes said:

She wouldn't have to do steroids. She would just have to be extraordinarily dedicated. I think a lot of people underestimate how difficult it is for females to achieve/maintain such a ripped physique.

 

As I said, it's very possible. But it's not that farfetched for people to think it's somewhat implausible.

 

In the end, who cares? I still hate the character.

It’s hard to explain to people how incredible hard is to gain muscle even as a male, most people think is just lifting weights and eating meat. LOL, I wish it was that easy.

 

I agree with everything you said, and on top of that, living in such world makes her NEAT even bigger, which means she would need even more calories just to even look remotely as muscular and a bit fatty as she looks (because she is not slim, which means she definitely takes at least 25-30% or more of the calories she needs, and she had been doing that for a long time). 1 burrito is not enough, maybe 5, would they let her eat that much just for her?. Not taking into account how stressful is to live in those conditions, which means even less gains.
 

Anyway, I think it’s best to just think is a game, we have seen a lot of far-fetched stuff in games.
 

But I honestly kind of interested how she is almost even bigger than Owen (or is she?), and how there are little to none muscular men (except the big brute at the end), despite being a huge gym right there, full of people.

[emailking]

3 hours ago, BlackTorito said:

It’s hard to explain to people how incredible hard is to gain muscle even as a male, most people think is just lifting weights and eating meat. LOL, I wish it was that easy.

 

 

I know how hard it is because I've made serious attempts at it before and didn't even get as big as Abby (who, again, is not even that big). But this doesn't obviate the obvious success that millions of people have had with it. Even though it's hard, many people manage it anyway. I think it's more down to willpower personally.

[BlackTorito]

54 minutes ago, emailking said:

 

I know how hard it is because I've made serious attempts at it before and didn't even get as big as Abby (who, again, is not even that big). But this doesn't obviate the obvious success that millions of people have had with it. Even though it's hard, many people manage it anyway. I think it's more down to willpower personally.

Not sure what would you define a “serious attempt”, and no, it’s not willpower, but obviously willpower is required for anything you want to achieve in life.

 

I’ve been lifting for close to 9 years now, and only got some serious gains after tracking my macros 2 years ago, did I attempt hard the 7 years prior? Yes, I did, but it comes to science, even if I was younger and had the beginner advantage, there is only so far you can reach going blind, even if you have endless willpower. Even “bro science” its at least better than going blind.

 

It takes food, physical and mental rest (aka sleep), proper training, proper training schedule, genetics, supplementation, even more food, time (YEARS), even more time to break body plateaus, which also requires proper knowledge of training = studying, etc, etc.. You talk about it like if its some kind of gambling, i’m pretty sure 80% of those “millions you say” have decent knowledge, and it took their sweet time and effort, they manage it because they learn, the same as we learn how to plat difficult games, but it doesn’t only come to try endlessly, does it?

 

So, we take a crossfit athlete which have everything mentioned before and even some more, she also fully commits and live to those goals, take his body and paste it into a post-apocalyptic survivor, totally unrealistic. Is it a game? Yes, it is. 
 

By the way, Abby is not that big? Well ok.., I think she looks as one of the biggest females in the world realistically, without steroids.

 

 

[Alayaes]

1 hour ago, BlackTorito said:

Not sure what would you define a “serious attempt”, and no, it’s not willpower, but obviously willpower is required for anything you want to achieve in life.

 

I’ve been lifting for close to 9 years now, and only got some serious gains after tracking my macros 2 years ago, did I attempt hard the 7 years prior? Yes, I did, but it comes to science, even if I was younger and had the beginner advantage, there is only so far you can reach going blind, even if you have endless willpower. Even “bro science” its at least better than going blind.

 

It takes food, physical and mental rest (aka sleep), proper training, proper training schedule, genetics, supplementation, even more food, time (YEARS), even more time to break body plateaus, which also requires proper knowledge of training = studying, etc, etc.. You talk about it like if its some kind of gambling, i’m pretty sure 80% of those “millions you say” have decent knowledge, and it took their sweet time and effort, they manage it because they learn, the same as we learn how to plat difficult games, but it doesn’t only come to try endlessly, does it?

 

So, we take a crossfit athlete which have everything mentioned before and even some more, she also fully commits and live to those goals, take his body and paste it into a post-apocalyptic survivor, totally unrealistic. Is it a game? Yes, it is. 
 

By the way, Abby is not that big? Well ok.., I think she looks as one of the biggest females in the world realistically, without steroids.

 

 

Also, she would need access to all the literature on the sport/science as it's not necessarily common sense. I've learned the most in my years of lifting from forums, trainers like Athlean X, and physical therapists. Without that knowledge, I would not be where I am today because results cannot be achieved by throwing everything at the wall and seeing what sticks. These things wouldn't be readily available, if at all, in an apocalypse.

 

Eating a lot and hitting the weights will make you eventually look like a powerlifter, given enough time. A burly "fat" man that has immense strength is very likely to emerge from a "bro-science" regime because it's practically what you accidentally become if you have little to no scientific knowledge of biology, metabolism, anatomy, etc. A bodybuilder would be very hard to come by in that setting. Even more so a female one.

 

A serious attempt at gaining lean muscle was 99% of the time undermined by poor nutrition and scientific application, providing the willpower was even there to begin with. (3-week new year's resolutions don't count)

Edited July 8, 2020 by Alayaes

[exsentry]

23 hours ago, emailking said:

Why is Abby's physique so hard to believe? Yeah most women don't look like that and don't want to, but if you lift heavy weights all the time that's what you'll look like. And plenty do.

 

Because it's unnatural and given the context of the world they live in, her physique is highly unlikely. She would need serious supplements/PEDs to maintain let alone gain lean mass and size like that.  

 

I mean, I get it, as much as I think it's unrealistic and despise Druckmann...I can see where Neil was going with this by having Abby train and make it her mission in life for that one encounter for revenge. It was just done lazily by mo-capping a female body builder. It would have been more realistic if she looked like Linda Hamilton in T2. In a list of things that are implausible in this game, there are bigger fish to fry IMO.

[emailking]

3 hours ago, BlackTorito said:

Not sure what would you define a “serious attempt”, and no, it’s not willpower, but obviously willpower is required for anything you want to achieve in life.

 

 

I don't define it as anything. I tried sincerely for about a year to develop significantly more muscle, attempting to do all of the things you guys are talking about, obviously was not very successful. Like you said, it's hard. I didn't say it was only willpower, but I think that's an important part of it.

 

I still don't see what's so hard to believe about a girl with muscly arms, especially since everyone seems to agree it would be possible even in her situation, but whatever.