Huge Influx of Wrongful Flags Being Approved

[JohnCenaSong-]

7 hours ago, RustyZero said:

102.000 profiles have been flagged. 4200 have opened a dispute (and most of the flags have been confirmed at dispute closure). So the overwhelming majority are correct

I don't know how you come to that conclusion based on the numbers you supplied.

If 4200 have been disputed and therefore confirmed or lifted that's 4.11% of the 102,000 flags you mention.

 

If false flagging is a potential issue then you do not know how many of those 97,800 undisputed profiles may or may not be valid flags. An undisputed flag is not undeniable proof of a valid flag and therefore, if we want to be technical, there's no concrete evidence there to support the statement "the overwhelming majority of flags are correct".

 

I'm not disputing your conclusion there however, I don't suspect false flagging is quite that bad and is probably still a small enough minority of cases, but let's not just assume that an undisputed flag is absolute.

[charxsetsuna]

Let's be honest it's too big of a job for just 4 people who aren't even getting paid.

They should just advertise more slots for volunteers who are experts in different genres. That might help things.

[Smashero]

19 hours ago, amurnin100 said:

The CRT have software which is not for distribution 

I think this is sth like an "urban legend" unless somebody from CRT will confirm that they reallly have something like FBI/CIA super secret soft ;).

[MMDE]

On 10/07/2023 at 6:27 AM, Taliesin_2943 said:

Oh it definitely is

 

?

On 10/07/2023 at 6:38 AM, HoorayForTyler said:

It literally happened to me before. I got flagged for BioShock 2 PS3 in the past with a flag reason along the lines of “you can’t complete the game that fast.” No other information given. They really approve just about anything.

 

 

You don't seem to have any flags...

On 10/07/2023 at 6:47 AM, MD_91 said:

Not really a surprise that mistakes happen when it's 4 volunteers having to deal with 1000's of reports

 

Someone gets it, and it's worse than this. Imagine if this isn't their job, they don't get paid for it, got lots to do in real life, and the heap keep piling up.

 

Some few times, to clear some backlog the approval process isn't done as properly as you'd want. There are thousands of games, we haven't necessarily played them all, lots of research and time for each report.

 

I mass report, like hundreds at a time. I know what to look for, and search for that, and then there is little to no thought or doubt about the reports. Only efficient way to do this for me.

[MMDE]

On 10/07/2023 at 7:14 AM, HoorayForTyler said:

The first step to having less mistakes is for them to stop approving flags with shitty flag reasons attached to them. Kinda wild when half of the disputes I’m reading end with “Lifted.” I also don’t think it’s a mistake for a dispute to be prematurely closed, giving the person flagged no chance to dispute their case. 

 

It's probably not prematurely. ? You just don't know why, and I guess that could be communicated in some way, but often it's dupe thread or someone spamming new dumb disputes. I guess in some rare cases a dispute is unnecessary and it's just being lifted.

On 10/07/2023 at 8:58 AM, Riiszk said:

I had a flag get approved (must have had a 3 second look at the report) because I was 'too fast' when intentionally speedrunning a game and avoiding trophies as long as possible. Granted it got taken away fairly easily, but it's real shit to be guilty until proven innocent. Going out of my way and wasting my own time being forced to prove myself feels like I'm taken into a police station, showing my 100% clean record and then them saying okay fine we won't arrest you, you're free to go. Okay, yeah thanks for this experience.

 

It really shouldn't matter that it's volunteer work. Don't approve shit if you spend 2 seconds looking at a report OR if you don't know much about the game and what the report is about, find out or let another CRT member deal with it. Happens far too often.

 

You have already been found guilty when you get the flag, but as you experienced, you could easily dispute it. You did not need to prove your innocence, just show that it was possible to do, create some doubt.

On 10/07/2023 at 1:38 PM, Frontzie said:

I'm still waiting for my flags to be removed after 6 weeks, after speaking to the CRT via Discord after they locked the dispute here and submitting further evidence against the erroneous flags.

 

I understand that they may have a backlog, but 6 weeks for a simple answer is taking the proverbial urine.

 

The flags were given for good reason. Given our communication, I still have left to test what we talked about. It will take some work for me to do, but I have the equipment for it now, however I'm not at home.

On 10/07/2023 at 2:48 PM, HoorayForTyler said:

I’m sure after so many years together, they don’t want to change their dynamic. Plus, they already have so many CRT wannabes working for them for free, so they probably don’t feel the the need to add to their team. I honestly would love to see more levelheaded people get introduced to the CRT, but it will never happen I’d imagine. If they do ever consider it, I pray that they don’t add any of the people who wedge themselves into every single dispute. That would be the worst idea ever. 

 

This is actually not true. Pretty much no part of it.

Edited July 12, 2023 by MMDE

[MMDE]

On 11/07/2023 at 7:20 AM, CB7Tuner91 said:

Unless you just hoard just three min platinums (Like most of the leaderboards) you will get flagged by this site eventually. I eventually just made peace with it. The leaderboards are a joke anyways. 

 

You were flagged for requesting help of cheater in GTA5, as far as I can see. ?

On 11/07/2023 at 7:37 AM, SaiyanSenshi said:

Its so stad the leaderboards are such a Joke… back in the day i always wanted to Get higher and higher, but now with thousands of easy platinums. Its not even possible to get hight anymore.. It makes me sad ?

 

Yeah, personally I have a completely different goal in mind these days, and for what I'm secretly competing at, I'm among top 10 in the world. With some effort I could easily be #1, so it just depends on what you set as your goals.

On 11/07/2023 at 0:43 PM, Vault-TecPhantom said:

Yeah, I've noticed this lately. I can't help but feel that there is a degree of malice behind some of the incorrect flags. That Friday 13th one you refer to felt very targeted and I wouldn't be surprised if there was a degree of sexism/misogyny behind it because the account in question belonged to a woman.

I think that people who repeatedly flag incorrectly should be named and shamed or get some form of small punishment. I also think, as has been suggested above, that the CRT member should do more research or consult other CRT members if it's a game they're not familiar with before approving anything.

 

Makes me reluctant to take advantage of cross platform saves (xbox to playstation) or autopops just in case some numpty flags it.

 

Identity politics? ?

 

Idk, but sometimes there are some emotional people who report like 10 people for a game for some reason they think is valid. There hasn't really been a huge issue with single individuals doing false reports.

[MMDE]

On 11/07/2023 at 2:09 PM, RustyZero said:

That could be very annoying to be wrongly flagged, but look at the figures: 102.000 profiles have been flagged. 4200 have opened a dispute (and most of the flags have been confirmed at dispute closure). So the overwhelming majority are correct.

So yeah, this is not perfect, and could be improved with more manpower (and more games knowledge), ...but overall, it is not that bad, considering the small setup in place to run it. 

 

Also, when the CRT team approve a flag, they cannot modify the wording, if it is poorly written.

 

The 102k number, it's better explained by us mass flagging with the exact same reason. Many of them even got 3 flags.

 

And yeah, we cannot currently change the text in the report. When I do hundreds of reports in a row, the text is usually very short and precise. Even so, the disputer usually ignores it, and I know how well they can actually read it, so I think it's often intentional. Like there isn't a category for edited timestamps, so I just leave it at default and write that it's edited timestamps. The disputer will make a big fuzz about how it's not too fast, not mentioning the edited part they know is true. ?

[Vault-TecPhantom]

13 minutes ago, MMDE said:

 

You were flagged for requesting help of cheater in GTA5, as far as I can see. ?

 

Yeah, personally I have a completely different goal in mind these days, and for what I'm secretly competing at, I'm among top 10 in the world. With some effort I could easily be #1, so it just depends on what you set as your goals.

 

Identity politics?

 

Idk, but sometimes there are some emotional people who report like 10 people for a game for some reason they think is valid. There hasn't really been a huge issue with single individuals doing false reports.

 

Huh? My point was that we can't rule out the fact that people may report an account for nefarious reasons no matter what it is. Be it a personal grudge, jealously or, yes, bigotry.

That's not outside the realm of possibility and you would be able to track the pattern of behaviour based on the type of accounts the culprit keeps falsely reporting. It's all the more reason why I think CRT members should research the games more thoroughly before approving and players who repeatedly false report should be held accountable.

 

To add: I am sympathetic to the fact that it's essentially done by about 3 or 4 volunteers and we do appreciate your hard work. However, when you have forum members who are very quickly able to google research a game they haven't even played to discover that the flag reason doesn't make any sense (as seen in one dispute on the first page) that suggests that there needs to be a more thorough consideration from the CRT members before approving flags. 

Edited July 12, 2023 by Vault-TecPhantom

[Letenko]

I honestly get both sides here. Especially when you know you're an innocent player and follow the site's rules, it sucks waking up a big red notification your profile (this is speaking from personal experience and having to create a dispute) labeling you a cheater. Even more so when it's for somethig that may appear stupid or easy to check.

 

On the other hand, if I got flagged again and it was for something that would take a couple of seconds to check, I might feel hurt, but I wouldn't be angry at the CRT. Just knowing how few of them there and how thankless of a volunteer job it is. Which one of you would take time out of your own day, using the little free time you have out of your job, family, school, other responsibilities to research games you have not even played yet.

 

What we see is just the tip of the iceberg. I'm sure some flags take seconds to confirm, but even then you have people creating disputes for those flags with either the wrong information, or no information at all. God forbid the CRT doesn’t want to reveal their methods and just closes the dispute or writes "this won't be lifted" and more often than not it creates a hate mob since players don't have access to the back end and don't see what the CRT sees. I'd wager even if I saw what they see, I wouldn't be able to make sense of it.

 

I appreciate what they do and while I may not agree with every decision they make and as with most things, sometimes they could do better, just doing the job for nothing is plenty enough in my book to give them a pass.

[HoorayForTyler]

14 minutes ago, MMDE said:

You don't seem to have any flags...

Yes I do. May 3rd, 2019. The game was BioShock 2 PS3. Flag reason was along the lines of “you can’t complete the game in a day.” No other evidence given to back up what the person wrongly assumed. I’m pretty sure dozens of users dogpiled into my dispute to give their unneeded input and act as if they knew more about the game than I did before I could even properly dispute my timestamps. It was a pretty stupid flag reason to have been approved in the first place to be honest.
 

I wouldn’t have voiced my opinion here—and the opinion of many others—if flag reasons were taken even a little more seriously. “Cfw garbage” is one thing and is completely understandable, but bare bones reasons with little to no evidence is creating more work for you guys than you’ll ever care to admit. I’m not asking for there to be a penalty implementation for wrongful flags, I’m just asking for you guys to read into flag submissions even a little bit more. I always make sure I’m as detailed as possible in any flag I submit, whereas other people can say the dumbest things just for that eventual dispute to be overturned. ?

 

Maybe because I have been a victim of being falsely flagged with a garbage flag reason attached to it, I’m trying to stand up for those falsely accused of cheating. The ability to flag people’s trophy lists has spiraled out of control as of late and should not be abused by the users of this site. That should indeed be enforced in some way. But what do I know, I’m just a user of the site. Also, I really hope you and everyone else on the CRT do not take my posts as being unappreciative of the work that has been done in order to keep cheaters of the leaderboards. Just hoping for improvements.

[MMDE]

20 hours ago, Kittens Are Awesome said:

They expect private server owners to give up their code, which has been proven by programmers way smarter than them to not matter. They should be held to the same standard. The software they use should be open source and available for all to scrutinize. Their software could be flawed, and most likely is with as much nonsense that goes around here.

 

 

 

My flag was a huge red flag that their system is busted. MNDE has no common sense which was displayed in my flag argument. If he's lead CRT, the whole system is compromised from the get go.

 

 

I have no idea what you are trying to say about servers, but some of the reasoning, for me anyway, has been ways to reduce friction/problems later down the line.

 

There's no lead, and you spelling my username wrong is a red flag for me (jk). It would be compromised? ? And I don't see you having any reports... Or are you talking about one you made? Are you talking about something I may not even have had any part in? ?

1 hour ago, Smashero said:

I think this is sth like an "urban legend" unless somebody from CRT will confirm that they reallly have something like FBI/CIA super secret soft ;).

?

 

Can't confirm or deny.

[FeelTheCosmos]

1 minute ago, MMDE said:

 

 ? And I don't see you having any reports... 

 

I'm pretty sure in another life Kittens are Awesome was... dun dun dun... Phil?

[MMDE]

13 minutes ago, HoorayForTyler said:

Yes I do. May 3rd, 2019. The game was BioShock 2 PS3. Flag reason was along the lines of “you can’t complete the game in a day.” No other evidence given to back up what the person wrongly assumed. I’m pretty sure dozens of users dogpiled into my dispute to give their unneeded input and act as if they knew more about the game than I did before I could even properly dispute my timestamps. It was a pretty stupid flag reason to have been approved in the first place to be honest.
 

I wouldn’t have voiced my opinion here—and the opinion of many others—if flag reasons were taken even a little more seriously. “Cfw garbage” is one thing and is completely understandable, but bare bones reasons with little to no evidence is creating more work for you guys than you’ll ever care to admit. I’m not asking for there to be a penalty implementation for wrongful flags, I’m just asking for you guys to read into flag submissions even a little bit more. I always make sure I’m as detailed as possible in any flag I submit, whereas other people can say the dumbest things just for that eventual dispute to be overturned.

 

Maybe because I have been a victim of being falsely flagged with a garbage flag reason attached to it, I’m trying to stand up for those falsely accused of cheating. The ability to flag people’s trophy lists has spiraled out of control as of late and should not be abused by the users of this site. That should indeed be enforced in some way. But what do I know, I’m just a user of the site. Also, I really hope you and everyone else on the CRT do not take my posts as being unappreciative of the work that has been done in order to keep cheaters of the leaderboards. Just hoping for improvements.

 

 

People have reported you 10 times. ?

 

No report by a CRT member.

 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by MMDE

[Vault-TecPhantom]

5 minutes ago, HoorayForTyler said:

Yes I do. May 3rd, 2019. The game was BioShock 2 PS3. Flag reason was along the lines of “you can’t complete the game in a day.” No other evidence given to back up what the person wrongly assumed. I’m pretty sure dozens of users dogpiled into my dispute to give their unneeded input and act as if they knew more about the game than I did before I could even properly dispute my timestamps. It was a pretty stupid flag reason to have been approved in the first place to be honest.
 

I wouldn’t have voiced my opinion here—and the opinion of many others—if flag reasons were taken even a little more seriously. “Cfw garbage” is one thing and is completely understandable, but bare bones reasons with little to no evidence is creating more work for you guys than you’ll ever care to admit. I’m not asking for there to be a penalty implementation for wrongful flags, I’m just asking for you guys to read into flag submissions even a little bit more. I always make sure I’m as detailed as possible in any flag I submit, whereas other people can say the dumbest things just for that eventual dispute to be overturned. ?

 

Maybe because I have been a victim of being falsely flagged with a garbage flag reason attached to it, I’m trying to stand up for those falsely accused of cheating. The ability to flag people’s trophy lists has spiraled out of control as of late and should not be abused by the users of this site. That should indeed be enforced in some way. But what do I know, I’m just a user of the site. Also, I really hope you and everyone else on the CRT do not take my posts as being unappreciative of the work that has been done in order to keep cheaters of the leaderboards. Just hoping for improvements.

 

lol you can absolutely get Bioshock in a day - the guide even says 15 hours. What kind of reason was that? ? Personally took me almost a year but that's because I was bouncing between other games. Glad I was dragging my heels if that's the sort of silly flag reason some folks are giving for reporting!

[FeelTheCosmos]

4 minutes ago, Vault-TecPhantom said:

 

lol you can absolutely get Bioshock in a day - the guide even says 15 hours. 

It was Bioshock 2 and it was for the PS3, which has all the multiplayer.  He did the PS4 version in 4 hours and something which put my 10 hour time at #2

 

Incidentally Tyler, I'm surprised that you have not only created this thread but are grinding this particular axe so hard.  I get wanting the system to be better, but I know you're proud of your top times on these leaderboards and that comes with a certain respect for the efforts to keep them clean, even if they sometimes fall short of perfect efficiency.  As someone who has also been falsely reported multiple times for speed runs, I have absolutely no problem explaining strats, and in my disputes everyone that matters has been professional and courteous. 

 

I'm currently compiling a spreadsheet with relevant stats of all the disputes that are still here, I'm about 3,000 done.  So far 55 have been overturned for being planned speed runs, including yours and mine, and there's usually no way CRT could know these times were possible until we told them.

Edited July 12, 2023 by FeelTheCosmos

[Banana_Sausage47]

Just because it's only 4 people doing it voluntarily does not make them exempt from criticism. That excuse seems to be brought up a lot; if that's the case hire more people to help out. I also do not agree with the CRT being able to flag people then handle the dispute themselves. The CRT should only review flags from other users. 

[D-E-U-S-X]

I wonder if someone reported me for being fastest achiever?

[Vault-TecPhantom]

1 minute ago, FeelTheCosmos said:

It was Bioshock 2 and it was for the PS3, which has all the multiplayer.  He did the PS4 version in 4 hours and something which put my 10 hour time at #2

 

Ah, thanks. Not sure how I missed the '2'. ? Can't speak to that then as I haven't platinumed Bioshock 2 but congrats at coming second place in speedrunning. ?

[FeelTheCosmos]

3 minutes ago, D-E-U-S-X said:

I wonder if someone reported me for being fastest achiever?

 

Haha, for San Andreas?  No, but I'm the reason you were #1 for about 2 years, I reported at least 5 cheated times that were under yours.  Nice run by the way

[MMDE]

7 minutes ago, D-E-U-S-X said:

I wonder if someone reported me for being fastest achiever?

 

Two people have tried to report you. ?

[Letenko]

2 minutes ago, Banana_Sausage47 said:

Just because it's only 4 people doing it voluntarily does not make them exempt from criticism. That excuse seems to be brought up a lot; if that's the case hire more people to help out. I also do not agree with the CRT being able to flag people then handle the dispute themselves. The CRT should only review flags from other users. 

I think "hire" is the wrong word. Would you want to do this for free? I wouldn't. I think it's a great point that there is onl 4 volunteers and I agree it does not mean we shouldn't criticize them, but there is constructive criticism and there dogpilling.Cutting them some skack is a great place to start IMO.

 

CRT being able to flag people helps out a ton I imagine. Nobody but the higher staff have access to all the trophy information, how would you, I or any other user flag somebody for editing timestamps if you won't see that they synced some trophies twice for example? We don't have access to that information and we shouldn't have it. If everybody saw it, it would make it much easier for cheaters to avoid being spotted this way.

 

I think you're onto something if there was a separate team flagging people and a separate team approving/reviewing those flags, but that would again require more volunteers and I doubt people would pile up to be a part of it, assuming it's again done on an unpaid,volunteering basis. Also, I'd wager the majority of false flags come from user, not the CRT, so not sure how much help it would be in the first place.

[D-E-U-S-X]

8 minutes ago, FeelTheCosmos said:

 

Haha, for San Andreas?  No, but I'm the reason you were #1 for about 2 years, I reported at least 5 cheated times that were under yours.  Nice run by the way

Thanks. It is still unclear to me how the Turkish account can be so fast. Unfortunately there are no "all trophies" runs on speedrun.com and no useful videos on YT. But I know of a glitch on the PC that allows you to skip half of the mission.

[B1rvine]

Sometimes the crt use semi-automated tools to mass handle reports. Bioshock was included in the tools to handle what cheat files would produce but never took into account cross save files when remasters came out much later. 

 

As far as your flag -- I remember when it was approved. The person handling it (it wasn't me) thought the huge time difference between #1 and #2 combined with having an online component made it seem unbelievable. Speedruns in general are hard to decipher sometimes since the lists are very unnatural and often not the 'true' time spent.

 

I'm usually skeptical about those reports. 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by B1rvine

[POEman553]

Please hear me out on this: maybe this problem can be solved by...not allowing anyone to flag any trophies. Or at the very least, not allow those who are consistent in issuing false flags that somehow get approved and lead to disputes. Maybe have them be told that their pattern of behavior will lead to them losing their leaderboard spot.

 

I keep an eye on the dispute threads and from time to time I see 'gatekeeping' occurring with certain games, which completely defeats the purpose of the flagging process and the leaderboards in general. If those people were told, "Hey we're going to ban you from the leaderboards if you continue to gatekeep," it may lead to a reduction of false flags. Then again, that may be a very small percentage of people doing that.

 

The crux of this is I wish the CRT would just say 'to hell with it' and not do any sort of monitoring/enforcing of the leaderboards if the task they agreed to do is too unmanageable. I almost wonder if the amount of drama on this site would be greatly reduced if this were to happen. Besides, this site is not officially endorsed by PlayStation. There could come a time in which everyone on the site is banned from PSN because we violated PlayStation's TOS. As it is, the site operates in the 'grey area' of their TOS and Sony could issue new TOS tomorrow where being part of trophy hunting websites / tracking sites would be in violation. This is not likely but things can change.

[D-E-U-S-X]

6 minutes ago, MMDE said:

 

Two people have tried to report you. ?

Interesting, maybe the games I'm the fastest in are too unpopular.??