Huge Influx of Wrongful Flags Being Approved

[HoorayForTyler]

12 minutes ago, MMDE said:

People have reported you 10 times. ?

Well, I'll be damned. I suppose a 'thank you' is in order for standing up for me. As previously mentioned, my woes are not to be confused with being unappreciative. Seriously though, thank you guys. Let it be known that if any of those flags had been approved, I would've disputed each and every one of them until the very end to prove I'm not a cheater. Being a trophy speedrunner on this site really does have its downsides.

 

15 minutes ago, Vault-TecPhantom said:

lol you can absolutely get Bioshock in a day - the guide even says 15 hours. What kind of reason was that?  Personally took me almost a year but that's because I was bouncing between other games. Glad I was dragging my heels if that's the sort of silly flag reason some folks are giving for reporting!

Mmm the guide might say that for the PS4 versions, but even then, that version can be completed way quicker than 15 hours, as evidenced by my timestamps for those stacks. My dispute was for the PS3 version, which has an insane grind for the online portion of the game. I just simply no-lifed the shit out of it and took a power nap near the end of my speedrun. ? It was just a matter of the accuser having zero knowledge of what they were talking about, like most wrongful flags.

[Helyx]

28 minutes ago, MMDE said:

 

 

 

 

Shit, that's bonkers. Tyler's had some masterful completions, so it doesn't surprise me he's been targeted by skeptics.

[Jerry_Appleby]

23 minutes ago, D-E-U-S-X said:

I wonder if someone reported me for being fastest achiever?

4 minutes ago, D-E-U-S-X said:

Interesting, maybe the games I'm the fastest in are too unpopular.

I've actually been curious myself, I have a bunch of #1 times in a lot of puzzle games, I wonder if anyone ever tried reporting any of mine?

 

[Ashande]

24 minutes ago, POEman553 said:

Please hear me out on this: maybe this problem can be solved by...not allowing anyone to flag any trophies. Or at the very least, not allow those who are consistent in issuing false flags that somehow get approved and lead to disputes. Maybe have them be told that their pattern of behavior will lead to them losing their leaderboard spot.

 

I keep an eye on the dispute threads and from time to time I see 'gatekeeping' occurring with certain games, which completely defeats the purpose of the flagging process and the leaderboards in general. If those people were told, "Hey we're going to ban you from the leaderboards if you continue to gatekeep," it may lead to a reduction of false flags. Then again, that may be a very small percentage of people doing that.

 

The crux of this is I wish the CRT would just say 'to hell with it' and not do any sort of monitoring/enforcing of the leaderboards if the task they agreed to do is too unmanageable. I almost wonder if the amount of drama on this site would be greatly reduced if this were to happen. Besides, this site is not officially endorsed by PlayStation. There could come a time in which everyone on the site is banned from PSN because we violated PlayStation's TOS. As it is, the site operates in the 'grey area' of their TOS and Sony could issue new TOS tomorrow where being part of trophy hunting websites / tracking sites would be in violation. This is not likely but things can change.

 

I don’t think removal of the ability to issue flags is going to accomplish much of anything. Bad actors (which I don’t personally think are as numerous as some folks do) will just find other ways to harass their intended targets, and any ability for the site to self-police goes out the window with it. A punishment for abuse of the system or repeated false flags might be worth looking into, though there’s always the difficulty of determining whether a flag was issued out of maliciousness or ignorance… and I still suspect that, overall, this is not a large a problem as some would make it out to be.

 

Not sure what you mean by gatekeeping; could you provide some specific examples?

 

Just throwing in the towel and saying “hell with it” because the task is unpleasant, difficult and never-ending doesn’t seem like a great idea. Shall we do the same (or would you suggest we do the same) to any area where rules or laws are relevant or attempts to enforce them exist? I’m sure any “drama” might diminish - for a little while, at least - but I don’t think reducing the drama by doing something that inspires a sizable contingent of your userbase to walk away is a great idea… especially when it seems likely that the folks who walk away in that instance are liable to be the ones who believe in (or at least pay lip service to and attempt to abide by) rules, leaving the site completely dominated by lawless rabble who find any behavior excusable so long as it pads their trophy count or gets them a “W” on whoever they dislike that day.

 

So far as alterations to Sony’s TOS, the site operating in a gray area, or how we could all be banned one day, sure. We could also be hit with a meteorite made of Jamba Juice cups in the next six minutes and twelve seconds. Exceptionally unlikely, unrelated to the topic at hand and ultimately a pointless exercise to worry about. Though I’d like to know what part of the TOS this site is in the gray area of; where, exactly, are we skating along the edge of the cliff?

52 minutes ago, MMDE said:

 

 

People have reported you 10 times. ?

 

 

 

Now I’m kind of curious how often I’ve been reported that I never knew about, given the number of people who rattle their sabers at me… ?

Edited July 12, 2023 by Ashande

[Burritoprime]

Much like the mods here it's too much work for just a few people, ofc that doesn't justify being flagged wrong, lets be honest some people in this forum are really petty with a lot of time in their hands, they spend hours scanning people's profiles just to bitch about something and flag people, pair that with the murky nature of what is considered cheating here and what's not you get disaster.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Sunnyburrito

[DEMONICRUBLE18]

So in regards to comments about how the crt team should research before approving a flag because they see a member do it in seconds there's a bit of a difference for checking 1 game where as the crt team probably had hundreds of reports to go through, I'm sure the games they're familiar with they don't approve the flag, stuff they're not sure on they either leave it for another member of the team to look at or approve it and let the community put in their input, if it gets disputed. 

 

For the whole false flagging thing, at the moment you just need to have the game in your trophy list to flag it maybe make it that you need a certain percentage in the game before being able to flag it, saves people looking at a game they have but haven't played and be all like but they guide says that's a 20 hour plat this guy did it in 10 he cheated and flag it, good example of this for me anyway is Dark Souls Remastered currently playing through the FromSoftware games and I was expecting 3 Playthroughs but had a guy drop me Weapons, Souls and a few other things I needed so just needed one Playthrough, had no idea that this was a thing that was possible, guide didn't mention it from what I remember, until I had actually played through the game, having that experience with a game before raising a report might have less false flags be reported. 

[POEman553]

12 minutes ago, Ashande said:

 

I don’t think removal of the ability to issue flags is going to accomplish much of anything. Bad actors (which I don’t personally think are as numerous as some folks do) will just find other ways to harass their intended targets, and any ability for the site to self-police goes out the window with it. A punishment for abuse of the system or repeated false flags might be worth looking into, though there’s always the difficulty of determining whether a flag was issued out of maliciousness or ignorance… and I still suspect that, overall, this is not a large a problem as some would make it out to be.

 

 

It may not but it kinda goes back to my point about this being a site outside of Sony's TOS. It's more for fun and for the nature to compare ourselves with other people.

 

Quote

Not sure what you mean by gatekeeping; could you provide some specific examples?

 

Here's a few I know about from what I've seen:

1) A player is known to have flagged ANYONE who had gotten a certain trophy in Cloudberry Kingdom. Essentially, this person wanted to prevent others from obtaining the trophy. This has happened to several people and had resulted in a dispute.

2) A player is known to flag people en mass for Breakthrough Gaming platinums, some of them are played on PS5 (where those games have a known issue with being poorly optimized and even causing apparently incorrect information to appear).
 

Quote

Just throwing in the towel and saying “hell with it” because the task is unpleasant, difficult and never-ending doesn’t seem like a great idea. Shall we do the same (or would you suggest we do the same) to any area where rules or laws are relevant or attempts to enforce them exist? I’m sure any “drama” might diminish - for a little while, at least - but I don’t think reducing the drama by doing something that inspires a sizable contingent of your userbase to walk away is a great idea… especially when it seems likely that the folks who walk away in that instance are liable to be the ones who believe in (or at least pay lip service to and attempt to abide by) rules, leaving the site completely dominated by lawless rabble who find any behavior excusable so long as it pads their trophy count or gets them a “W” on whoever they dislike that day.

 

It should be stressed this is supposed to be a hobbyist site and trophy hunting is supposed to fun. I'm not suggesting that people should walk away because the task of reviewing flags shouldn't be done. It's just the whole process and what's being described in this thread leads to people not enjoying it.

 

Quote

So far as alterations to Sony’s TOS, the site operating in a gray area, or how we could all be banned one day, sure. We could also be hit with a meteorite made of Jamba Juice cups in the next six minutes and twelve seconds. Exceptionally unlikely, unrelated to the topic at hand and ultimately a pointless exercise to worry about. Though I’d like to know what part of the TOS this site is in the gray area of; where, exactly, are we skating along the edge of the cliff?

 

Now I’m kind of curious how often I’ve been reported that I never knew about, given the number of people who rattle their sabers at me… ?

 

Let me direct you to Sony's TOS for PSN Services and Third-Party Services on PSN (https://www.playstation.com/en-us/legal/psn-terms-of-service/):

 

Quote

2.2. We may also provide access (paid or unpaid) to content, products, or services offered by publishers or entities other than SIE and its affiliates (“Third-Party Services”). When you use PSN or your Account to access Third-Party Services, the applicable terms of this Agreement and any applicable Usage Terms will govern your use of that Service.

 

PSNProfiles falls within 'entities other than SIE and its affiliates.' Sony could decide one day to update their TOS to limit your account to only be provided to themselves and their affiliates (EA/Activision/etc.) which would leave sites like this (and other trophy hunting sites) from being able to function.

[HoorayForTyler]

1 hour ago, FeelTheCosmos said:

Incidentally Tyler, I'm surprised that you have not only created this thread but are grinding this particular axe so hard.  I get wanting the system to be better, but I know you're proud of your top times on these leaderboards and that comes with a certain respect for the efforts to keep them clean, even if they sometimes fall short of perfect efficiency.  As someone who has also been falsely reported multiple times for speed runs, I have absolutely no problem explaining strats, and in my disputes everyone that matters has been professional and courteous. 

 

I'm currently compiling a spreadsheet with relevant stats of all the disputes that are still here, I'm about 3,000 done.  So far 55 have been overturned for being planned speed runs, including yours and mine, and there's usually no way CRT could know these times were possible until we told them.

It's simply a matter of standing up for the falsely accused. The flagging system on this site is great in its own right, but there's always room for improvement. Because you speedrun trophies like me, I'm sure you know that the integrity of the leaderboard does matter to us in some regard, especially the 'fastest achiever' leaderboard. Because of the flagging system, a certain French "speedrunner" was outed as a cheater in more than a dozen games they had records for, almost all proven to be cheated. Another "speedrunner" I'm thinking of was also outed as a CFW user, and I had the pleasure of personally making sure one of their flags stuck after an extensive back and forth (they now have a new account on the site, but that's to be discussed with CRT in private ?). When something like that happens, it's a win for us speedrunners who are actually legit and does cement the usefulness of the flagging system.

 

Also, I'm with you on the whole sharing strats thing. All someone has to do is simply message me asking about one of my records and I will gladly explain how I got from A all the way to Z. I have nothing to hide. The only reason I have not made a habit of recording/streaming more of my trophy speedruns is because I do not have the best setup currently for PS4/PS5 and I can never figure out how to properly record/stream my PS3 gameplay. Once I do, I'm sure I can easily make a side hustle from speedrunning videos. 

 

1 hour ago, B1rvine said:

Sometimes the crt use semi-automated tools to mass handle reports. Bioshock was included in the tools to handle what cheat files would produce but never took into account cross save files when remasters came out much later. 

 

As far as your flag -- I remember when it was approved. The person handling it (it wasn't me) thought the huge time difference between #1 and #2 combined with having an online component made it seem unbelievable. Speedruns in general are hard to decipher sometimes since the lists are very unnatural and often not the 'true' time spent.

 

I'm usually skeptical about those reports. 

From CRT's point of view, that makes total sense. Sometimes timestamps aren't obvious enough to debunk, but I feel with the advancement of CFW tools, cheaters on the leaderboards for fastest times are going to be near impossible to dispute against. All a cheater has to do is look at the fastest time and make minor improvements to time gaps to secure their spot. This will most likely become more and more prevalent with PS3 games as time goes on. A perfect example of this is my time for BioShock 2 PS3. When I got the record, I think about 3-4 different accounts copy/pasted my timestamps for the online trophies, the time gaps being exactly alike, securing their spots in the top 10 fastest times. That's honestly scary that people can manage that. Thankfully they were all erased by you guys.

[DeepEyes7]

1 hour ago, Jerry_Appleby said:

I've actually been curious myself, I have a bunch of #1 times in a lot of puzzle games, I wonder if anyone ever tried reporting any of mine?

 

 

We should add more work to the CRT and they should let us know when someone is trying to flag us  (Just kidding)

[amurnin100]

8 minutes ago, DeepEyes7 said:

 

We should add more work to the CRT and they should let us know when someone is trying to flag us  (Just kidding)

It’s been said but when a person is flagged and disputes, there should be an automatic facility where we can see the reason for the flag to assist with CRT for the following:

 

1: CRT can approve based on the flagged reason (this is already implemented)

 

2: We can identify if this is true or not (differential circumstances apply) taking speed running, game short cuts etx and could resolve the issue quicker and those with more knowledge can contribute to the flag.

 

I also suggest that the person flagged is informed they can close their dispute forum until the authorities ehhhh CRT come in to reduce traffic.

Edited July 12, 2023 by amurnin100

[SzzMN]

This makes me wonder how many times I've been reported now, I'm closing in on 40 fastest achievers soon mainly for CoD games and MP heavy games and 120 top 50 finishes (Mainly top 10s). ? But honestly the wannabes are the worst most of the time lacking basic knowledge about the games in question. 

[Banana_Sausage47]

1 hour ago, Letenko said:

I think "hire" is the wrong word. Would you want to do this for free? I wouldn't. I think it's a great point that there is onl 4 volunteers and I agree it does not mean we shouldn't criticize them, but there is constructive criticism and there dogpilling.Cutting them some skack is a great place to start IMO.

 

CRT being able to flag people helps out a ton I imagine. Nobody but the higher staff have access to all the trophy information, how would you, I or any other user flag somebody for editing timestamps if you won't see that they synced some trophies twice for example? We don't have access to that information and we shouldn't have it. If everybody saw it, it would make it much easier for cheaters to avoid being spotted this way.

 

I guess "recruit" makes more sense than "hire" if you want to be pedantic about it.

 

CRT flagging people is an awful system. I personally know someone who got accused of having a CFW Vita and cheating even though I 100% know for a fact they didn't. Being accused of cheating by someone and then having to prove your innocence to the accuser who has already made their mind up from the start is horrible and unjust.

[SpaceIsDandy]

im pretty sure its okay for someone to be the judge, jury, and executioner so long as they volunteer to do it ?

[DEMONICRUBLE18]

44 minutes ago, HoorayForTyler said:

 can never figure out how to properly record/stream my PS3 gameplay. Once I do, I'm sure I can easily make a side hustle from speedrunning videos. 

 

 

 

I use genki shadowcast for recording PS3 game play I recommend there is a limit of 3 hours that it records for at one time. 

[HoorayForTyler]

15 minutes ago, SpaceIsDandy said:

im pretty sure its okay for someone to be the judge, jury, and executioner so long as they volunteer to do it

AND as long as they’re levelheaded and are fair in their judgements. That is super important. I don’t doubt that CRT would open the doors for adding members who can fairly assess disputes.

 

13 minutes ago, DEMONICRUBLE18 said:

I use genki shadowcast for recording PS3 game play I recommend there is a limit of 3 hours that it records for at one time. 

Thanks for the recommendation, but with a 3 hour limitation, it might not be suitable for me. The longest speedrun I’ve ever done without hardly taking breaks was Dead Space 3, and that was 1 day 5 hours long. I need something more suitable for recording/streaming for longer durations. I have an El Gato HD60 S, but I cannot for the life of me get my capture software to pickup the output. I follow video guides to a T and still fail. Maybe I have the wrong El Gato or something, not sure.

[B1rvine]

15 minutes ago, Master__hammer45 said:

b1 wont comment unless directly criticized,

 

The fact is this site is flawed beyond a doubt, the users that are affected and have been flagged wrongfully know about this

 

I really cant work out what's so difficult about being fair, unbiased, and only approving reports that are beyond a reasonable doubt.

We’re not perfect. Nobody is. But we’re all completely unbiased and honest. Nobody has been wrongly flagged on purpose.

 

If we got it right 100% of the time, then the dispute section wouldn’t need to exist. But I’m confident 99% of the flags are right.
 

When we get it wrong it’s usually for one of a few reasons. Often we’re just not being knowledgeable, along with a super detailed report. Others are time constraints and people hounding us to get the job done who swear on their lives it’s right. Etc.
 

Let’s be real though. PSNTL’s owner has documented evidence he purposely flagged people to get ahead on his own leaderboard, and has known and prolific cheaters running the show (Hello RD4, DenDigger, and JeanMi). The admin has also stated directly repenters can always go back on the leaderboard. 
 

Exophase has no real cheat team for PSN, and is more PC focused. 

—

 

Please provide a real example if you think someone has been flagged incorrectly.

 

 

[Letenko]

42 minutes ago, Banana_Sausage47 said:

 

I guess "recruit" makes more sense than "hire" if you want to be pedantic about it.

 

CRT flagging people is an awful system. I personally know someone who got accused of having a CFW Vita and cheating even though I 100% know for a fact they didn't. Being accused of cheating by someone and then having to prove your innocence to the accuser who has already made their mind up from the start is horrible and unjust.

Hypothetically, let's say we could have 2 groups, one for flagging and one for approving. You'd still have to create a dispute and prove your innocence to somebody who either flagged you or approved your flag. I don't think there is a way to do it where you try to prove you did nothing wrong to somebody who didn't have a hand in flagging you in the first place.

 

I'm sure flagging you and approving the flag could put you in an awakward situation and may feel like you're talkig to somebody who already sees you as guilty. With the current system we have though, the CRT have to at least approve a flag and if things were as bad as you imply they are, no flags would get overturned because they would already see anybody who is flagged as guilty. Case closed.

 

This is coming from somebody who got flagged by a CRT member (I'd assume at least) and got their flag overturned and I harbor no hard feelings towards them or anybody on the team. Just for perspective.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Letenko
Phone spelling

[HoorayForTyler]

6 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

Let’s be real though. PSNTL’s owner has documented evidence he purposely flagged people to get ahead on his own leaderboard, and has known and prolific cheaters running the show (Hello RD4, DenDigger, and JeanMi). The admin has also stated directly repenters can always go back on the leaderboard. 

I’ve always found it funny that the owner of that site doesn’t allow anyone with hidden trophies on the rarity leaderboard, yet he himself has hidden trophies and is on the leaderboard. ?

[swift500]

39 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

We’re not perfect. Nobody is. But we’re all completely unbiased and honest. Nobody has been wrongly flagged on purpose.

 

If we got it right 100% of the time, then the dispute section wouldn’t need to exist. But I’m confident 99% of the flags are right.
 

When we get it wrong it’s usually for one of a few reasons. Often we’re just not being knowledgeable, along with a super detailed report. Others are time constraints and people hounding us to get the job done who swear on their lives it’s right. Etc.
 

Let’s be real though. PSNTL’s owner has documented evidence he purposely flagged people to get ahead on his own leaderboard, and has known and prolific cheaters running the show (Hello RD4, DenDigger, and JeanMi). The admin has also stated directly repenters can always go back on the leaderboard. 
 

Exophase has no real cheat team for PSN, and is more PC focused. 

—

 

Please provide a real example if you think someone has been flagged incorrectly.

 

 

 

i find it hilarious by the time you respond to the post, just like they predicted, it's been taken down, just like they predicted ....?

[DeepEyes7]

Unpopular opinion... People sometimes forget that PSNP is not Sony affiliated, PSNP is Sly's site and it runs with the rules that he and his staff decides, they try most of the time to get a consensus with the users so that this site is user friendly and we accept it, but if they want to flag all the users whose username starts with an "A"... They can do it... You don't like it? Go to other site... It doesn't exist? Then make yourself one with your own leaderboard with your own rules that favors you like obviously someone already did... So please stop making things up like gatekeeping, vendettas against some well know obnoxious users, or how the system is flawed without redemption just because it doesnt go with your agenda... I personally would like a lot of QoL improvements that I know will never come, but whining all day about the work of the voluntary staff (CRT, mods...) is tiring...

[GUDGER666]

16 minutes ago, swift500 said:

 

i find it hilarious by the time you respond to the post, just like they predicted, it's been taken down, just like they predicted ....

And they were banned for 18 months. 

[Helyx]

29 minutes ago, DeepEyes7 said:

if they want to flag all the users whose username starts with an "A"... They can do it... You don't like it? Go to other site.

 

Bold words from a username that starts with "D".

[Riiszk]

2 hours ago, SzzMN said:

This makes me wonder how many times I've been reported now, I'm closing in on 40 fastest achievers soon mainly for CoD games and MP heavy games and 120 top 50 finishes (Mainly top 10s). ? But honestly the wannabes are the worst most of the time lacking basic knowledge about the games in question. 

I saw you recently beat my Far Cry 3 Classic time and took me off fastest. I still have my main account to try retake it ?

[GUDGER666]

48 minutes ago, Riiszk said:

I saw you recently beat my Far Cry 3 Classic time and took me off fastest. I still have my main account to try retake it

I think I'm top of 1 fastest time leaderboard, Dog Gone Golfing (EU) haha woop. 

[POMARANCZA123PL]

On 10.07.2023 at 6:15 AM, HoorayForTyler said:

Does CRT just approve every single flag that comes through or what? Do they even read the flag reasons half the time? Do they even browse through the lists of the person being flagged before approving? I genuinely want to know bc I feel like it’s gotten so out of hand over the last year. 
 

I just saw someone get approved for a flag for their stacks of BioShock PS4, and it swiftly got closed when they didn’t even get a chance to dispute their case. Someone was flagged for the EXACT SAME THING and their flag was lifted, yet CRT just magically forgets about this I suppose and thinks this new person is a cheat. It is known just by looking at the game’s forums that BioShock PS4 has cross saves between the different versions. 
 

Another person has a flag approved for one of their stacks of Friday the 13th. Honestly, are some of the members of CRT drunk when they’re approving shit? Baseless flag reasons being approved is infuriating to witness and is a waste of time on everyone’s end.

Yeah lmao. I got flagged on PlayStation All Stars for doing "too many arcade modes at one time".

I got banned from the leaderboards for being too good at the game lmao.

I didnt even do any extreme records, it took me around 15-20 minutes for one arcade mode. CRT and leaderboards here are a total joke.