Amazing Game, Crappy Trophy List

[bosstristan]

21 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

 

You're talking about the Accessibility settings - which are not the same as in game cheats or difficulty settings.

 

Accessibility settings are there to allow people who had different limitations on their physical abilities to input to the game, and still play and enjoy the full breadth of the game, with modifications to compensate for or alleviate different physical barriers.

 

Disabling trophies as a result of using them, would be a real dick move - basically telling differently abled players that their money is good, but they're not getting the trophies, as their efforts, while allowed for, are not equivalent to those of an able-bodied gamer.

 

The fact that some able-bodied people can abuse those acceptability options, doesn't mean that any fault lies with their implementation - only with the people who do so.

 

You don't ban the use of wheels-chairs, simply because they could be used by someone who can walk.

 

 

 

 

 

On topic, as little premium as I generally place on "challenge" as a metric for "quality" - I do agree with @Deadly_Ha_Ha, in so much as a good trophy list is one that requires at least a fair amount of the game to be experienced - and a bad one is one that doesn't. Whether that is difficult or not, I don't really care either way, but completion of the trophy list should, at least, require a broad spectrum of the game's features to be engaged with.

 

Unpopular opinion here but I do think that trophies should not unlock when an accessibilty option is enabled.

OR the ideal would be to have 2 separate list, one for the regular game, and one for the game with assists enabled.
I know it would be an ideal and that it will never happen.

 

It's like in sports, you do not put disabled players with 'regular' players, you create a specific 'league' with specific rules to adapt to their needs. Well it should be the same with trophies.

Edited June 16, 2021 by bosstristan

[abhinandhan22]

Starting the game tomorrow but personally I don't really care. I used to care when I was younger, if i could extract value out of a game to its fullest(thereason why i even got my first plat ever since I had to play that same game for a long ass time). Now that I can buy my own games and have much lesser time to play games as an adult in general, I appreciate shorter trophy lists. In fact, the harder the list is, if its a game I am not 100% interested in buying, I would much rather wait for a sale and time my purchase with when I have free time to play(e.g. Returnal)

[DrBloodmoney]

Just now, steel6burgh said:

There are plenty of games that provide handicap type settings that disable trophies.  I get what you're saying but it's also doesn't makes sense for the majority of the world who are not handicap to have to play back to handicap standards in order to appease the few.  I have a special needs child so no need to preach to me about the handicap i get it.  Accessibility setting for the handicap or impaired allows them to enjoy and play the game doesn't necessarily mean you have to hand out the prize for the hardest play through.  While I understand and agree with your point that the rest of us need not use these settings you know that will not be the case.  It's all pretty meaningless but as father of a child with costello syndrome I never ask the world to change their standards on behalf of my child that isn't fair to anybody else and I know she wouldn't want that either. I think it's great they have settings like this in games but I don't agree that they should still allow trophies.   For a vast majority of people who suffer from handicaps and syndromes accessibility settings are not going to make a difference to the point they earn all the trophies anyway if I'm being honest.

 

I broadly agree with the specific points you mention (and, for what it's worth, I'm a father to an additional needs child also) - but I think it's more about the 'look' the company invites by disabling trophies when accessibility setting are used, rather than a genuine belief that the accessibility options can ever be a perfect alleviation. 

 

"Here, we've made some settings to help you out!" 

"Oh cool, awesome! I'll earn some trophies right now!"

"Well, no... we're not going to let you actually get any rewards... as we want to 'safeguard' the 'sanctity' of some able-bodied or neurotypical dude-bro who want's to keep his rarity percentages.... but here! Buy our thing and have a blast! Your efforts are worthless in our eyes, but go nuts!"

 

 

You know what I mean?

 

In some ways, doing that almost seems worse than not implementing Accessibility options at all.

[iGGTheEnd]

Honestly I loved the trophy list it was a nice break not having to do anything insane, I still played on the hardest mode and think I died to enemies maybe 3-4 times so it's not like that would be a very hard trophy anyways.  There's plenty of hard games out there, this is just a nice break in between.

 

I find it funny that this thread is complaining about no NG+ trophy and everyone was bitching that Miles morales had an NG+ trophy.  

[abhinandhan22]

Just now, iGGTheEnd said:

Honestly I loved the trophy list it was a nice break not having to do anything insane, I still played on the hardest mode and think I died to enemies maybe 3-4 times so it's not like that would be a very hard trophy anyways.  There's plenty of hard games out there, this is just a nice break in between.

 

I find it funny that this thread is complaining about no NG+ trophy and everyone was bitching that Miles morales had an NG+ trophy.  

LMAO exactly, the miles morales NG+ trophy was such a waste of time even though I loved the game. Felt extremely pointless to play the game for a few more hours just for that one trophy.

[bosstristan]

2 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

 

I broadly agree with the specific points you mention (and, for what it's worth, I'm a father to an additional needs child also) - but I think it's more about the 'look' the company invites by disabling trophies when accessibility setting are used, rather than a genuine belief that the accessibility options can ever be a perfect alleviation. 

 

"Here, we've made some settings to help you out!" 

"Oh cool, awesome! I'll earn some trophies right now!"

"Well, no... we're not going to let you actually get any rewards... as we want to 'safeguard' the 'sanctity' of some able-bodied or neurotypical dude-bro who want's to keep his rarity percentages.... but here! Buy our thing and have a blast! Your efforts are worthless in our eyes, but go nuts!"

 

 

You know what I mean?

 

In some ways, doing that almost seems worse than not implementing Accessibility options at all.

Yeah I understand, I guess we perceive the value of trophy differently from the devs, to us, it's a reward for an achievement, to them, it's just a marketing tool.

 

But in a broader sense, I find it sad that things become more and more devaluated, watered down. But that's a different debate.

4 minutes ago, iGGTheEnd said:

Honestly I loved the trophy list it was a nice break not having to do anything insane, I still played on the hardest mode and think I died to enemies maybe 3-4 times so it's not like that would be a very hard trophy anyways.  There's plenty of hard games out there, this is just a nice break in between.

 

I find it funny that this thread is complaining about no NG+ trophy and everyone was bitching that Miles morales had an NG+ trophy.  

Well, I never ever complained about any NG+ in any game, quite the opposite actually. Also I've never played Spider Man not Miles Morales.

[Deadly_Ha_Ha]

6 minutes ago, iGGTheEnd said:

 

I find it funny that this thread is complaining about no NG+ trophy and everyone was bitching that Miles morales had an NG+ trophy.  

Well, take this with a grain of salt since I didn't play that game, but I doubt a lot of the same people in this thread were the ones complaining there. Even if that proves to be false and "everyone" was bitching about it, I don't think there's a lot of comparability between these two cases. This list is bad for the reasons given here, that's this thread's opinion. The MM list was bad because people didn't want to be bothered with playing the game more than once. Those are very different complaints from probably different sets of people.

 

It also doesn't seem like a big deal to have to play through NG+ if it only takes "a few more hours" according to that other guy

Edited June 16, 2021 by Deadly_Ha_Ha

[steel6burgh]

1 minute ago, DrBloodmoney said:

 

I broadly agree with the specific points you mention (and, for what it's worth, I'm a father to an additional needs child also) - but I think it's more about the 'look' the company invites by disabling trophies when accessibility setting are used, rather than a genuine belief that the accessibility options can ever be a perfect alleviation. 

 

"Here, we've made some settings to help you out!" 

"Oh cool, awesome! I'll earn some trophies right now!"

"Well, no... we're not going to let you actually get any rewards... as we want to 'safeguard' the 'sanctity' of some able-bodied or neurotypical dude-bro who want's to keep his rarity percentages.... but here! Buy our thing and have a blast! Your efforts are worthless in our eyes, but go nuts!"

 

 

You know what I mean?

 

In some ways, doing that almost seems worse than not implementing Accessibility options at all.

I get it, in the end though the rest of the world can't lower it's standard for competition to appease to a vast minority as cruel as that might seem and i struggle with saying that but I believe it.  In a perfect world the able bodied wouldn't use handicap accessibility options to get an achievement but this world is far from living up to that standard.  But I do agree to a point this isn't that important, trophy hunting, so why not?  It's not like it's the world series or Super Bowl or world cup.

[DrBloodmoney]

5 minutes ago, steel6burgh said:

I get it, in the end though the rest of the world can't lower it's standard for competition to appease to a vast minority as cruel as that might seem and i struggle with saying that but I believe it.  In a perfect world the able bodied wouldn't use handicap accessibility options to get an achievement but this world is far from living up to that standard.  But I do agree to a point this isn't that important, trophy hunting, so why not?  It's not like it's the world series or Super Bowl or world cup.

I know - it’s a tough nut to crack this one.

 

In the end, the way I see it, I absolutely love trophy hunting - but the reasons Accessibility options exist, is too important to be trumped by that.

 

If it means a high rarity percentage for some trophies that took me a herculean effort to get - so be it.

 

I’d rather know some folks who could run, will choose to cheese the race in a wheelchair, than to think the race has a sign at the start with ‘able-bodied only’ on it, you know?

Edited June 16, 2021 by DrBloodmoney

[steel6burgh]

1 minute ago, DrBloodmoney said:

I know - it’s a tough nut to crack this one.

 

In the end, the way I see it, I absolutely love trophy hunting - but the reasons Accessibility options exist, is too important to be trumped by that.

 

If it means a high rarity percentage for some trophies that took me a herculean effort to get - so be it.

 

I’d rather know some folks who could run, will choose to cheese the race in a wheelchair, than to think the race has a sign at the start with ‘able-bodied only’ on it, you know?

yep and it seems like sony may start putting these options in all their games.  I struggles though with the thought of everyone putting them in their games with trophy support though.  Wouldn't that water down the sport for everyone else?  Thats the thing.  Society handicaps us in all sorts of ways.  we have the special olympics, we separate women's sports form mens, etc.  I don't know what the fair answer is here. Life isn't fair and I think people living with handicaps understand that more than any of us.  I would give my life right now to have my daughter normal and unhindered for her to be able to have all the same experiences as me in life but I don't have that option.

[DavySuicide]

1 hour ago, Deadly_Ha_Ha said:

Careful man, if you suggest trophy lists shouldn't be for the every-player you'll have a horde of "trophy hunters" coming right after you

 haha man made my day  

[DrBloodmoney]

6 minutes ago, steel6burgh said:

yep and it seems like sony may start putting these options in all their games.  I struggles though with the thought of everyone putting them in their games with trophy support though.  Wouldn't that water down the sport for everyone else?  Thats the thing.  Society handicaps us in all sorts of ways.  we have the special olympics, we separate women's sports form mens, etc.  I don't know what the fair answer is here. Life isn't fair and I think people living with handicaps understand that more than any of us.  I would give my life right now to have my daughter normal and unhindered for her to be able to have all the same experiences as me in life but I don't have that option.

In all honesty- there is actually a way games companies could have it both ways - do accessibility options like difficulty in RE4 - using real-time adjustment.

Basically, if you have accessibility options enabled, and you are doing ‘too well’ (i.e. don’t need them) the game slowly removes then from the equation - the way RE4 adjusted it’s difficulty depending on how well you were doing.

 

That way, able-bodied people abusing it to have an easy time would end up with them turning off automatically, and those who need some kind of assistance, would have it slowly tailor more to their specific level of required help?

 

just a thought of course - probably not actually workable, but just something that occurred to me!

[steel6burgh]

1 minute ago, DrBloodmoney said:

In all honesty- there is actually a way games companies could have it both ways - do accessibility options like difficulty in RE4 - using real-time adjustment.

Basically, if you have accessibility options enabled, and you are doing ‘too well’ (i.e. don’t need them) the game slowly removes then from the equation - the way RE4 adjusted it’s difficulty depending on how well you were doing.

 

That way, able-bodied people abusing it to have an easy time would end up with them turning off automatically, and those who need some kind of assistance, would have it slowly tailor more to their specific level of required help?

 

just a thought of course - probably not actually workable, but just something that occurred to me!

Hey with the capabilities of AI today if it's not entirely possible i'm sure it will be in the future.  So I think it's a good thought. Joking of course, but would it work both ways like when i try to play a fighting game it would realize i suck really bad and turn on the accessibility settings?  Lol

[Undead Wolf]

Agreed. This has been a thing with all Sony first party titles as of late because they want to encourage normies to go for the platinum. Any hint of difficulty or commitment in a trophy list will scare these people off, so they make the lists as watered down as possible. It's pretty much just a participation award at this point, so for committed trophy hunters like us, these trophy lists are wholly unsatisfying to complete. 

[aZombieDictator]

Imo clearing 100% trophies/achievements in a game should mean you've done everything in the game. Really disappointing barely any games require true 100% for all trophies anymore. Platinums are basically participation awards now.

[DrBloodmoney]

1 minute ago, steel6burgh said:

Hey with the capabilities of AI today if it's not entirely possible i'm sure it will be in the future.  So I think it's a good thought. Joking of course, but would it work both ways like when i try to play a fighting game it would realize i suck really bad and turn on the accessibility settings?  Lol

Well, I don’t know about you, but given my abilities with fighting games, I’m not sure a game exists that could possibly manage to get easy enough to match my abysmal skill level ?

[sepheroithisgod]

It's just a victim of the times.

 

Let's face it, the trophy hunting community has changed and developers are cashing in on it. The average AAA gaming experience has a trophy list that offer's little in terms of difficulty. Most games even lack difficulty trophies to help make it a hobby accessible to everyone. This is taken a step further when you look at all of the accessibility options they are adding to modern games that can even be used to cheese higher difficulties.

 

Should Ratchet and Clank be a 10/10 in terms of difficulty? 

No.

 

Does that mean every trophy should be a cakewalk?

No.

 

I personally took the time to get every collectable the game had and still only had 13 hrs of game time by the time the plat popped. I think asking players to beat challenge mode and max out all the weapons would have balanced out the list.

[djb5f]

48 minutes ago, bosstristan said:

 

Unpopular opinion here but I do think that trophies should not unlock when an accessibilty option is enabled.

OR the ideal would be to have 2 separate list, one for the regular game, and one for the game with assists enabled.
I know it would be an ideal and that it will never happen.

 

It's like in sports, you do not put disabled players with 'regular' players, you create a specific 'league' with specific rules to adapt to their needs. Well it should be the same with trophies.

Not that I disagree overall, but I had to get a chuckle about the sports analogy.  For 90% of the hardcore gaming population, gaming is for those who aren’t adept at playing sports.  Indoor illness is real lol.

[PizzingRazzorz]

I definitely agree that this list was too easy, but in the grand scheme of things, who cares? Its a single easy list in a sea of platinums that still require skill / effort to obtain. Looking at some of the other recent PS5 exclusives, there have been plenty of difficult plats. Returnal, Sackboy, and Demon's Souls all require a bunch of effort to obtain. In my opinion, an easy plat like this every so often can get a bunch of people interested in the trophy hunting hobby for the first time. This idea that trophies are suddenly trending towards easy freebie plats is a bit silly. For every Ratchet and Clank / Last of Us Part 2, there are tons of plats scratch to scratch the difficulty itch if that is what you're into. 

[Deadly_Ha_Ha]

The actions of trophy hunters aren't as disconnected from developer actions as I've seen claimed time and again by people on this site. Devs know they can sell more copies if they offer plats for less effort. We shouldn't be so quick to take the bait. I get dumped on for saying I won't buy a game if the list doesn't fit my style, but being sold on a game because of an easy plat is also poor reasoning considering the trend it creates in my opinion is a negative one. 

 

I remember when Mayo came out. It was novel, and that was a part of its charm. I bought it like a lot of other people and I enjoyed it for what it was. I didn't realize what a cascade would happen afterwards to where even "real" games are starting to have more and more accessible lists. If I sound crotchety then oh well, and I can't help what others do, but I wish we could take this hobby back to the ps3/early ps4 days. But since we can't, we just have to choose more carefully what we want our accounts to be like. Trophy hunting for me is just a natural extension of playing games. It's not disconnected for me, and with only so much time to play games I have to choose games that I want on my account and not just games I might like

1 minute ago, PizzingRazzorz said:

This idea that trophies are suddenly trending towards easy freebie plats is a bit silly. 

The trend isn't that sudden, and it includes autopopping ps5 games instead of just having them be shared lists.

[x-Rhys-v-Mc-x]

I agree it’s far too easy but It’s probably so that anyone can unlock the platinum with or without accessibility options 

Edited June 16, 2021 by x-Rhys-v-Mc-x

[bosstristan]

21 minutes ago, djb5f said:

Not that I disagree overall, but I had to get a chuckle about the sports analogy.  For 90% of the hardcore gaming population, gaming is for those who aren’t adept at playing sports.  Indoor illness is real lol.

It doesn't change the sense of the analogy ^^

Majority should not adapt to the minority, in any regard. What we can do is find a good compromise. And watering down everything for everyone is not what I call a compromise.

 

The sports analogy is relevant to me, it should be the same with trophy lists : one list with no accessibility options, one with accessibility options. That would be the perfect compromise.

Edited June 16, 2021 by bosstristan

[djb5f]

5 minutes ago, bosstristan said:

It doesn't change the sense of the analogy ^^

Majority should not adapt to the minority, in any regard. What we can do is find a good compromise. And watering down everything for everyone is not what I call a compromise.

 

The sports analogy is relevant to me, it should be the same with trophy lists : one list with no accessibility options, one with accessibility options. That would be the perfect compromise.

Oh, I hear you.

 

I doubt very few The Last of Us 2 players used the accessibility options to make it easier.  Now, a lot of trophy hunters might have exploited it, but trophy hunting often brings out the worst in game play.  The casual player is not going through accessibility options to cheese it.

 

Much of this site (and others like it) is dedicated to finding exploits, glitches in your favor, the easiest methods via YouTube videos, and boosting sessions where people trade kills in the middle of a map or otherwise cheese a trophy!  
 

So we can’t pretend trophy hunting has ever been a clean endeavor.  And now, the autopops from PS4 to PS5 in just another in a long list.

 

If you want a pure gaming experience, unfortunately, trophy hunting is not recommended.

 

 

[Together_Comic]

44 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

In all honesty- there is actually a way games companies could have it both ways - do accessibility options like difficulty in RE4 - using real-time adjustment.

Basically, if you have accessibility options enabled, and you are doing ‘too well’ (i.e. don’t need them) the game slowly removes then from the equation - the way RE4 adjusted it’s difficulty depending on how well you were doing.

 

That way, able-bodied people abusing it to have an easy time would end up with them turning off automatically, and those who need some kind of assistance, would have it slowly tailor more to their specific level of required help?

 

just a thought of course - probably not actually workable, but just something that occurred to me!

 

For what it is worth, those types of system for RE4 where the game will dynamically tone down the difficulty (or up as the case may be) always annoyed me.  Game please do not turn down my difficulty, I enjoy the process of banging my head against the wall, and the catharsis of being hard headed enough to eventually break down the wall, and I feel robbed of both when the task is made easier.  Your proposition is an interesting one though.  Maybe having a "do you want to turn on dynamic accessibility" option could be nice where it will gradually turn up or down accessibility settings based on how the gaming sessions are going wouldn't be too bad. If you want the game "as intended" (whatever that means) the game won't mess with your settings, but if you may need help, its there. 

[RedDevil757]

Better include an easy platinum and not challenge anyone. Otherwise the trophy hunters will avoid it. Sad but true