Trophy Rarity Question

[madbuk]

It is not accurate or meaningful... You're making up numbers, just like what was suggested earlier. Unless you know someone owns the DLC, you're making up numbers assuming someone is owning the DLC. In other words, it's not accurate. If you just want to base it on who owns the game, you may as well base each game's % on who owns the console, it makes as much sense, so it's not meaningful.

 

The reason it was changed was because most DLCs was then marked as Rare or Ultra Rare, pretty much always, unless of course most people owned the DLC.... So yeah, it was just wrong in every way, and it was mostly about "paying for ultra rare".

Not this again... It's not making up numbers at all. EVERY base game owner has the DLC trophies on their trophy list, so they should be included in rarity calculation. Why is this so difficult to understand?

When you buy a PS3, it doesnt load every single game onto your profile.

And so what if every trophy was UR/VR? People who get DLC trophies put extra time, effort and money into a game so why shouldn't they be rewarded? With the current system they're currently punished because it makes your average rarity stat much worse.

[Cleggworth]

My vote would be to go back to the old method of DLC rarity calculation but introduce a sliding scale for rarity thresholds.

Ultra rare for DLC = 5% × (DLC owners/base game owners)

Not every DLC trophy will be ultra rare and your average rarity won't go through the roof.

The current system doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Trophy rarity is calculated making an attempt to use only DLC owners but in terms of average completion and unearned trophies it's assumed everybody has them.

[JOEYGGDXDREAPER7]

I agree. The trophy system should be changed back. It is not fair to those that actually do their best to get the DLC trophies no matter how hard (or easy they are). I mean to give just a quick example that comes to mind, let me reference HellDivers here. In the Masters of the Galaxy DLC, there are 3 trophies (1 for defeating each enemy faction boss). Anyone who is really good at the games knows how to beat them, but also knows they can be pretty tough too (at least for most players). In truth, the rarity for those 3 boss killing trophies should probably be at least Very Rare. But do to the current system, all 3 of those trophies are common (which makes absoloutely no sense).

There are 142,000 owners of the game (and only 11,000 that have earned at least one of the 3 trophies.) Since the expansions for the game are free, that means everyone has access to these bosses and the 3 trophies. This just goes to show that over 90% of the people that played the game on this site could not even kill 1 of the for a single trophy.

I feel this should honestly state my case here.

[Lucas]

Not this again... It's not making up numbers at all. EVERY base game owner has the DLC trophies on their trophy list, so they should be included in rarity calculation. Why is this so difficult to understand?

When you buy a PS3, it doesnt load every single game onto your profile.

And so what if every trophy was UR/VR? People who get DLC trophies put extra time, effort and money into a game so why shouldn't they be rewarded? With the current system they're currently punished because it makes your average rarity stat much worse.

I completely agree with this.

[FawltyPowers]

I do agree there needs to be consistency. It also depends on how you view DLC in relation to the main game. Should DLC statistics be viewed as part of the main game or should all DLC be independent? When you really look at it DLC is mostly independent, either multiplayer, time trials, extra missions etc rather than a continuation of story or requiring you to have played the main game.

 

The arguments for basing statistics off main game owners has been listed a number of times so no need to write any more

 

Independent DLC Statistics

The current process treats all DLC essentially as separate games with statistics based off gamers who have earned a trophy. This leads to an inconsistency as main game owners include those who have not earned a trophy (mentioned above).

 

The only game I can think of where the first trophy earned is universal is Assassins Creed 2 - The Birth of an Assassin. It's literally the first thing that happens after the opening cut scene. Here are the stats:

 

564848 - Game Owners

552521 - Trophy Achievers

 

Therefore 12327 gamers at 0%.

 

The adjustments for the platinum would be:

 

Currently - 156605 / 564848 = 27.72%

Re-adjusted - 156605 / 552521 = 28.34%

 

This gives the same issues as DLC. A guaranteed first trophy in a game will always be 100%, it also makes achieving Ultra Rare trophies even more difficult.

 

So should 0% owners be included in the main game? After all our Main Page completion stat does not include 0% games. You can also delete 0% games now from your profile. Will this reduce rarity on the free games from PS plus installed but never played?

 

At least by using statistics of trophy achievers for the main game as well you would now be comparing like for like.

[thegirlruka]

So should 0% owners be included in the main game? After all our Main Page completion stat does not include 0% games. You can also delete 0% games now from your profile. Will this reduce rarity on the free games from PS plus installed but never played?

 

At least by using statistics of trophy achievers for the main game as well you would now be comparing like for like.

The statistics page includes 0% lists though.

[madbuk]

I do agree there needs to be consistency. It also depends on how you view DLC in relation to the main game. Should DLC statistics be viewed as part of the main game or should all DLC be independent? When you really look at it DLC is mostly independent, either multiplayer, time trials, extra missions etc rather than a continuation of story or requiring you to have played the main game.

 

The arguments for basing statistics off main game owners has been listed a number of times so no need to write any more

But the majority of DLC isn't independent. You can't play Mirror's Edge time trial DLC without owning Mirror's Edge - it's a part of that game.

 

Sure, sometimes you get independent DLC like Left Behind, Freedom Cry, or inFamous First Light, but it's quite rare.

[ProfBambam55]

haha...based on people's recent reactions i think it's time we had a look at some of the basics...if we took a vote right now on which rarity stat to use we could expect to get results like this:
 
a- 25% like the current stat
b- 25% like the old stat (sony's stat applied to this site's users)
c- 25% do/don't like either stat
d- 25%. don't care...since these guys likely wouldn't vote anyways we end all tied up at 33.33%...
 
another thing that needs to be clarified before we start is what facts are available to us...here are the 3 numbers that we will be trying to calculate an average from:

1- DLC Achievers (referred to as X in our math)
2- DLC Owners based on people having achieved at least one trophy of the DLC (referred to as Y)
3- Base Game Owners based on people having achieved at least one trophy in the base game (referred to as Z)
 
yes, we could use the achievers from every trophy in every base game but in 99% of the cases there is a simple trophy like "just press X" so we can deduct that the Base Game Owner total is pretty solid...the numbers are available to us for anyone who doubts this statement and would like proof...and now would be a good time to ask: is everyone comfortable with the current calculation of base game rarity totals?...to keep things simple i will assume it to be accurate for the rest of this post...perhaps it should be discussed elsewhere as this thread is complicated enough as is...
 
next, let's assume the rarity stat is a must and that the option to remove it doesn't exist...it was observed that DLC rarity % affects a game's overall rarity % so it leads us to look for a mathematical equation that we can apply to every DLC trophy of every game...the problem is, and i will bold it to be sure it's not overlooked, the only stat that is 100% accurate when determining DLC rarity % is # of achievers... this means that we can only ever have half of any equation and therefore all methods of calculating DLC rarity are flawed...so now we need to find a calculation which demonstrates the most probable average across a variety of games' content while also keeping in check a ton of different factors; cost, skill, time-consumption, international availablity, to name a few...that being said, we're ready to have a look at the pros and cons of potential methods of calculating rarity % to make sure we understand what they imply...please feel free to refer to the attached chart (which i posted earlier but fear has gotten lost in posts) for reference...
 
the Stat Now
just to be sure we understand what will be discussed, here's our current equation in determining rarity %:
 
DLC Achievers/DLC Owners = Rarity (A/B = rarity for further reference)
 
for games that have a lot of trophies in the DLC, content that is similar to the base game, and/or at least one "just press X"-like trophy these numbers are fairly consistent...some games that fall into one of these categories are DRIVECLUB, L.A. Noire, and The Walking Dead series...but we have a major inconsistency in many cases which is particularly obvious when there are few trophies in the DLC and/or no “press X” trophy to compare to...extreme examples are found when the entire DLC has trophies like “finish the game on the hardest difficulty without taking damage”...Arkham City, TLoU and MGRising are examples of this...what happens is we end up getting averages near 100% since there is no way of knowing how many people played the DLC but didn't earn one of these trophies...is it fair from a stats point of view to just ignore them?...i don't have any concrete numbers on this but if we look at the chart, the tendency of this formula is to inflate the DLC rarity %s...so some DLC's “press X” trophies are far more rare than “finish the game on the hardest difficulty without taking damage” ones....from the perspective of rarity % representing attempts vs successes we find that many games' DLC trophies should be less challenging (or less rare to take out the subjectivity of the work challenging) to obtain than those of the base game...if we understand why this is actually not the case we get base game rarity % = apples, DLC rarity % = oranges...so far so good?...now before 33% of us say “i knew it....the old method was better.” let's also have a look at it and other potential averages...
 
the Old Stat
once again, posting the formula that caused the rarity % to originally be changed might improve clarity so here it is:
 
DLC Achievers/Base Game Owners = Rarity
 
before anything is said about this way of calculating please just have a look at the chart...what do you see?...right, a ton of ultra rare trophies...this is mainly just due to the size of the numbers, base game owners being a huge one and in comparison, DLC achievers being quite small...in fact the latter figure is often just 1-2% of the larger one...now how do we know everyone who has played the base game has also unlocked a trophy in the DLC?...we don't, which means we have a potential margin of error of 98-99% in many cases...if you were talking to an investment advisor and he told you he had just put all your money into a stock that has a potential growth with a margin of error of 98-99% what would you say?...”perfect”?...the stats in the chart lean towards the rarity %s being deflated with this formula which is particularly obvious in popular games that have high levels of ownership or games the have DLC different to base content (examples of GTA V, Uncharted and COD where the DLC has mostly multiplayer trophies while the base game ones are singleplayer-oriented)...once again applying these results to overall game rarity with the representation of attempts vs successes we see that often it will greatly lower the percentage...it may also lead us to believe that some games have nearly impossible DLC when compared to the base game content due to most if not all of them being ultra rare...this falsehood can only mean that base game rarity % = apples, DLC rarity % = oranges...

ok, the stage for the next set of logical thought processes has been set...i'm going to assume that only 33% of you are going to bother considering the following as i trust the numbers laid out at the top of this post...haha...from what i've seen the remaining 67% will just continue to debate why their inaccurate number is more accurate than all others...at least let's consider some altenatives...it's worth mentioning that there are in fact three legitimate ways of calculating averages: arithmetic, geometric, and harmonic...these are not “snake oil” formulae that we're making up that just happen to yield relevant figures...they we're discovered long before any of us existed by people who likely understood math better than the lot of us combined...thankfully they left their equations for us to use and all we have to do is plug our numbers into them...let's see if any of the ones we haven't covered yet apply to our dilemma...

first up is arithmetic mean(or arithmetic average is you prefer)...this is the basic way of calculating averages that most of us learn in school...the classic formula is:

(A+B)/2 = avg. (i'm not going to bother multiplying by 100 as it will be constant for all cases in determining %s)

alright, now let's take the X,Y, and Z representations outlined at the beginning and swap in every possible combination...well, maybe not...that would entail a lot of unnecessary explaining so allow me to summarize the relevant ones...there are actually only 2 ones that would make sense...the first one is an average of DLC Achievers/DLC Owners and DLC Achievers/Base Game Owners...this give us a perfect middle between the current rarity % and the old one...yes, it's in the chart...the formula would look like this:

((X/Y)+(X/Z))/2 = Rarity

it was also suggested to take an average of DLC Owners and Base Game Owners and then apply it to the original A/B = rarity equation...so here we go, the calculation for overall ownership average would be:

(Y+Z)/2 = game ownership avg.
 
let's toss it into the A/B formula to get an overall average:
 
X/((Y+Z)/2) = Rarity
 
great...these figures are worth examining since we're now talking about finding a middle ground which ideally should please believers of either the current or old stat...but do they?...looking at the numbers in the chart we get results similar to the current rarity % in one case and similar to the old stat in the other...they are shades of grey in the middle of the black and white results that we originally ended up with...the biggest factor we are having difficulty overcoming is the same as before...the gap between the proven base game owners and dlc owners is massive...so how do we get around it?...well, we've now exhausted all possible calculations relevant to our case using arithmetic average...i'm guessing my 33% just got lower as well...haha...we should give up trying to figure out a logical representation of our rarity % here if we only use the knowledge of numbers that most of us have learned in school and/or applied to daily life...ignorance is bliss, right?...

for those still following and curious as to how other methods might work, let's do it...remember that the chart can be brought up at any point should the results be difficult to visualize...here we go with geometric average...it might help to compare it to arithmetic mean so we understand why it could apply to our situation but first, the formula:

( A * B )^0.5
 
ok, now let's imagine two boxes...one has 2 platinum trophies in it and the other has 32...if we use arithmetic to calculate an average between them we take all the trophies, combine them and then divide them equally...so two boxes of 17 trophies...another way of looking at it is to have 32 boxes with one trophy in each, the middle being box # 17...sorry this will be a bit banal but will hopefully help some visualize our issue:
|1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||(box #17-middle)1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1||1|
now what if we wanted to find a common ratio between 2 and 32?...how do we do that?...simply put, we take a whole bunch of boxes and, in this case, double its ratio till we get to the larger number...so the first box has 2 trophies, the second box has 4 trophies, the third box has 8 and so on...how many boxes do we have?...here's another visual representation:
|2| |4| |8| |16| |32|
now we can see that there are five boxes in total...the average or middle of all the boxes is the one with 8 trophies in it, box #3...let's just quickly throw these numbers into our previous equation to be sure that this is in fact what geometric average is all about...
(2*32)^0.5 = 8
yep, all good...so how does this help us?...when comparing numbers that have a massive gap between them using a relation of ratio dampens the effect of fluctuations in either number while remaining true to their original value...the problem with our numbers in the current and old stats using arithmetic average is that each achiever/owner holds a value of 1 (as shown by the above example of |1|s)...the advantage that geometric average might possibly have is that it reduces the amount of boxes needed while maintaining the ratio between them all...so we could get the same results as arithmetic but only have to use 5 boxes which entails that each box is still calculated evenly while reducing the potential gap in figures...but we don't need boxes or platinums to calculate our DLC trophy rarity, we have a formula...yay!...so let's discuss how this applies to our situation...as with arithmetic there are many possible combinations of X,Y, and Z that we could sub into our geometric formula...the most logical one is once again DLC Achievers/DLC Owners and DLC Achievers/Base Game Owners...so here we go...

((X/Y)*(X/Z)^0.5 = Rarity

now let's have a look at our chart...the results are nothing shy of interesting...they show a pretty consistent average across most games' DLC trophies...the low ones are not too extreme but neither are the high ones too high...so we kind of get another shade of grey a little closer to the truth than the previous shades of gray that arithmetic gave us...the downside to this method is that it dampens the impact of both numbers, giving increased power to the lower of the two...in cases like King's Quest, the Walking Dead, DRIVECLUB and similar DLC that has a lot of trophies (even worse if the DLC has more trophies that the base game) and usually a “press X” one to relate them all to, the ones that would be near the 100% mark will likely never be able to pass the 80% mark with the geometric value...we could argue that less people play DLC in general as shown by our owners statistics so having a cap at 80% kind of makes sense but it doesn't...this is particularly evident with The Walking Dead 2...so if we once again look at rarity as representing some form of attempts vs successes ratio, in some cases the rarity % will be increased and in others decreased meaning that base game rarity % = apples, DLC rarity % = oranges...

the final method for calculating averages which is harmonic mean is quite confusing to me and i don't know how to apply it to our rarity calculations without getting into base game achiever %s...if anyone one has ideas i'd be more than willing to try to help sort out how it could apply so that we could say that we considered all possible equations in attempting to demonstrate the most probable rarity %...until then, it will remain an unknown...ignorance is bliss, right?...
 
to sum it all up, we can argue all day about how to compare apples and oranges and give micro-reasons as to why the way you can compare them makes sense over mine...in the end, it will never actually make sense...that leaves us with our opinions...here is what i did to form an opinion and i highly recommend doing this before jumping to conclusions...take every game that you own (heck, tell me which ones and i'll toss the data in the chart) and see what kind of results you get for each individual DLC trophy...ask yourself questions like:
- how many trophies were in each DLC?
- was the DLC was free or not?
- was it part of a GOTY-type edition from day one or did you have to buy them/a season pass?
- were the trophies difficult when compared to the base game?
- did the DLC have multiplayer and the base game none, or vice versa ?
- were there some must-boost type trophies?
- were the trophies time-consuming?
- was the DLC just basically a continuation of the base game's gameplay or was it completely different?
- were they the “press X” type, the “finished the game on the hardest difficulty” type or somewhere in between...
- were they collect rare items ones?
- and so on...
now look at the stats again and see which of the rarity %s is most in line with your thoughts when compared to the base game totals...yes, none of them will be perfect...

i did exactly this and here is what i got: in general, i found that the balance the geometric average gave was impressive when considering all possible factors and comparing the various equations listed in the chart...for some games i preferred arithmetic mean or the current method but felt that they didn't do justice to ones that i personally found “difficult”...i also observed that DLC players are fewer than base game players/achievers and so perhaps the rarity, by definition, should be lower...yes, there are exceptions to every rule and this is just my opinion based on the limited games that i have played and completed...what i would find interesting is what people's honest opinions would be of their own game collections as i hope this post has proven that all methods of calculating rarity % are not accurate so continuing to argue why they aren't just doesn't make sense...whether we like it or not the latter statement is is not an opinion, it is just math...
 
one final note is that perhaps another thing we could discuss is the option of not including DLC rarity in a game's overall % as hopefully now we can see why it is just adding apples to oranges or oranges to apples...perhaps a rarity stat for base game and each of the game's DLCs separately would be more practical...again, just an opinion...i apologize for the novel...

edit: interesting stuff...i just went over the entire list of trophies on the chart while also looking at the totals and trophies for the base games displayed on this site...i gave each dlc a value of 1 in the columns that i thought best suited them...i ended up with:

- current method - 30.5 pts

- old method - 4 pts

- geometric - 30.5

- arithmetic - 2

pretty cool...now one could say i'm 50/50 between the current method and geometric but if i had to vote it would be the 100%s for trophies like "finish the game on the hardest difficulty" that have me leaning towards the geometric...more than happy to share the results in the form of a chart if anyone would be interested in discussing them or using it for their own calculations...another option in doing the latter would be to just mark an X on the top of the first trophy in the respective column of each DLC that you own and total it all up at the end...of course this is a very limited sample of games to draw conclusions from but interesting nonetheless...ah yes, and the 0.5 came from DmC...i think the trophy for defeating the wisp is a sign that the DLC has been played but at the same time saw the difficulty trophies being way off the main game average for similar trophies so voted 0.5 in two columns...

Trophy Chart.pdf

Edited October 22, 2016 by ProfBambam55

[dalailama1989]

another thing that needs to be clarified before we start is what facts are available to us...here are the 3 numbers that we will be trying to calculate an average from:

1- DLC Achievers (referred to as X in our math)

2- DLC Owners based on people having achieved at least one trophy of the DLC (referred to as Y)

3- Base Game Owners based on people having achieved at least one trophy in the base game (referred to as Z)

 

Holy shit, I think that's the longest post I've ever seen here

 

in your pdf, Y and Z are the other way around, though

[Se7en]

at least let's consider some altenatives...it's worth mentioning that there are in fact three legitimate ways of calculating averages: arithmetic, geometric, and harmonic...these are not “snake oil” formulae that we're making up that just happen to yield relevant figures...they we're discovered long before any of us existed by people who likely understood math better than the lot of us combined...thankfully they left their equations for us to use...let's see if any of the ones we haven't covered yet apply to our dilemma...

Impressive work you’ve done here. Though it’s based on assumption that some average values have to be calculated as a middle ground solution to please people who do/don’t like either stat, present or old one. And as well as current method, this one (no matter what particular formula is used — for arithmetic or geometric mean) is flawed when it comes to the games with built-in or free DLC, since the number of DLC owners indisputably equals number of base game owners.

Just a quick example of averages not working with such games — difficulty trophies in The Last of Us Remastered:

Survivor (base game): 13.00%

Survivor + (base game): 8.98%

Grounded (from DLC): 7.27% (old), 99.99% (now), 26.97% (G avg), 53.63% (A avg)

Grounded + (from DLC): 5.37% (old), 73.85% (now), 19.92% (G avg), 39.61% (A avg)

As you can see, both arithmetic and geometric averages for Grounded and Grounded + are still inaccurate and much higher, than Survivor/Survivor +. Which doesn’t make sense as those trophies are stackable and Grounded Mode is actually built in the base game.

TLoU difficulties chart.pdf

Edited October 22, 2016 by Se7en_Rus

[ProfBambam55]

again, micro-arguments not necessary here...nothing we do is going to be 100% accurate...our goal is to find which stat as a whole pleases us or comes as near as possible to a probable truth...i totalled my opinions based on the data available in the edit at the end of post and i recommend we all do the same before deciding to analyze one game's stats to death in an ocean of assumptions...even i can't argue with the numbers...whether i like it or not i'm 50/50 on the 30.5 results...meaning i'm ok with the way things are now but also like the geometric based on our tiny list of examples...i'm just one of X amount of people with an opinion as an achiever so this also means nothing on its own...

 

a simple way of visualizing what i'm trying to say is: imagine that instead of having ways of calculating rarity we're talking about investing every penny that we own within our 5 categories but can only choose one stock to invest in...the games represent the various companies...based on the totals i got at the end of analyzing each company i'd put all mine in either the one we have now or the geometric one...since i was 50/50 i would definitely be looking at a broader range of numbers in trying to decide between the two...your saying based on one example of one company you'd toss all your money into what is statistically proven to be a huge gamble...that's your opinion, and if i was your advisor i'd be recommending you look at the broader picture...just my opinion though...and if i was your advisor i'd probably also say "why not just give me all your money instead"...haha...

Edited October 22, 2016 by ProfBambam55

[StacFace92]

I haven't read the whole thread but I really like the idea of assuming everyone has the dlc with an option to tick a box saying you don't own certain ones. Yes, some people will say they don't have it when they do. But those people will also be deleting 0% lists from games they actually own. This would also help with showing a more accurate number of unearned trophies, and would make the trophy adviser more useful.

It could also be combined with the suggestion of marking everyone as a dlc owner on games where it comes free with the base game. There could be an option on the game's list similar to the option to flag someone, to say certain or all dlcs come with the main game, which would then lead to the option for people to say they don't own it being unavailable.

[ProfBambam55]

this is interesting but i'm not sure if it would change the numbers to be more accurate...just look at what you're asking:

1- roughly 3 000 000 people would need to go through all their trophy lists looking for boxes to check off...

2- for them to be honest

3- for them to use this site and be aware that they even have the option

4- etc. human error potential is never good

the data we have now is in a sense a lot more concrete than this...

 

and then what about the situation where a game is released without dlc, then dlc is added as it's created, and then a GOTY edition with all DLC is released?....what box do i check and should we calculate all cases differently...isn't it better to just look at the somewhat accurate data we have now and see if it kind of makes sense as a whole?...i don't disagree with games that are released with all DLC such as PS4 TLoU and The Walking Dead 2 to be marked differently but do they really make a huge difference to the overall trends?...and is it worth the time and effort to calculate them differently?...

Edited October 22, 2016 by ProfBambam55

[dalailama1989]

and then a GOTY edition with all DLC is released?

 

I still think it would be an easy thing to implement (but still no definite answer to the general problem) to calculate the DLC rarity for certain, approved games based on the general owners (like the old stat).

Games like the 3 Uncharted Remasters, Tlou, Borderlands 2 + PreSeq, Rise of the Tomb Raider, Witcher 3 (2 new lists) and I don't know how many more come with all DLC on disc and there is no way not to own those DLC, even though some may never start it.

 

So that whenever the guys add a new trophy list to the site, they might tick a box which will calculate the DLC-rarity for that particular game based on general owners, if we know, this one will come with all DLC and there is no way around owning the DLC

[ProfBambam55]

do i need to repeat the issue with human error and how the bigger picture might be worth having a look at?...no disrespect intended...just not much point in arguing over statistics that will minimally affect the whole...since TLoU is being used as an example just look at how the totals stay consistent in spite of method of calculation...so, about investing all your money in that stat... ... ... ...haha...

 

edit: i have a kind of embarassing confession...it took me a while to realize this but looking over the data i had the thought: "what if every gamer was like me?"...not in the ego trip sense but more like "what if everyone bought all the DLC for all the games they had and pushed through the trophies either for the fun of it or the sake of the challenge?"...it would lead to the rarity stat being around 100% wouldn't it?...then i thought about all the people i know that play video games...i'm not a social butterfly by any means but i know plenty of gamers and not one of them is a trophy hunter or has even heard of this site...most play through the story once if a trophy dings then "cool" if not who cares they just want to have fun...none of these people would ever consider buying the DLC and would try it out if it was free and also had a portion where they could just play through it like the story...when i first saw this topic i thought "yeah, these guys are right...why is DLC rarity higher than the base game?...that doesn't make sense"...but it absolutely does now that i think about it...who buys DLC and who actually would be excited about doing a potential 5th playthrough on grounded mode in TLoU?...people who really like a certain game... can't stand not knowing what they're missing out on... completionists and/or... ... ...trophy hunters...so with this in mind doesn't it kind of make sense that DLC trophies have a higher rarity % than base game ones?...sony's doesn't appear to be aiming their rarity stat at trophy hunters and why should they?...we're pretty much a minority...site's like this are for people like us so it makes sense to have a rarity stat that kind of represents us, no?...that being said, if you really care and want to lower your rarity stat, stop at the plat...food for thought...all opinions here...

Edited October 22, 2016 by ProfBambam55

[Se7en]

imagine that instead of having ways of calculating rarity we're talking about investing every penny that we own within our 5 categories but can only choose one stock to invest in...

Well, it’s kinda false analogy. Nobody loses every penny or makes a profit because of the chosen method to calculate trophy rarity

 

analyze one game's stats

It was the most obvious example, where inaccuracy of both current and suggested methods can be easily noted due to stackable difficulty trophies. There are plenty more games with free or built-in DLC as @dalailama1989 have said, including also GTA V (PS3 & PS4), Bioshock Collection, Batman: Return to Arkham, Burnout Paradise, Dishonored Definitive Edition, Sleeping Dogs: Definitive Edition etc. etc.

So it’s not the case of just one game’s stats being affected.

Edited October 22, 2016 by Se7en_Rus

[ProfBambam55]

haha...i figured someone would jump on that so even put imagine in nice italics at the beginning...you even quoted the imagine...it's not even close to how investing works in the first place (at least you didn't attack that)...did i also make a typo you felt needed correction?...

you seem to be big into the micro reasoning and i'm confident in saying that most of us are willing to listen if you present a large enough amount of data in a relatively unbiaised manner that clearly shows a variety of games supporting your theory with a logical explanation...quoting a meaningless line and listing random games while dropping another member's name means nothing to me but if that's "logic" to you so be it...free, paid, or only available by traveling to the moon, somebody earning a trophy in a game/DLC more often than not proves they have played it, therefore own it...far better number than just saying "everyone owns it", as proven by the data in our chart...there seems to be a concensus that we would like rarity to somewhat demonstrate an attempts vs success ratio as we are doing with the base game totals so this method of determining ownership also helps in satisfying that criteria...

for the sake of fun and to show that i am in fact hearing what you're saying let's look at the games you mentioned since likely you won't bother coming up with any data and just keep repeating "i'm right, look at all the exceptions i can find"...gta v has a trophy which is basically "setup a heist" and "create something"...i'd say those are pretty good signs of ownership and DLC 1 is in the chart...numbers look fine with the current method...bioshock 1..."finish the level"...numbers look good...bioshock 2...not sure, looks like mp..."play every DLC map in a public match"...possible exception...batman...no DLC?...burnout...all DLC have easy trophies that would be hard to miss...part of the chart...numbers look fine with the current method...dishonored....DLC 1...looks tough...completion rate looks pretty legit...possible exception...DLC 2 & 3..."finish the first level" trophies by the looks of it but could be wrong...rate looks fine...sleeping dogs...DLC 1 & 2..."finish the first level"...looks legit...

please, i know it's a tough concept to grasp but there is a bigger picture...just try to see it...i've made an attempt to explain everything as clearly as possible and as simply as possible while also providing numbers that can't really be argued with and tools to calculate them on your own should you doubt my math...without showing your own numbers or disproving what i've said with some kind of reasoning your basically just saying to me "i'm right because i say so"...that's great, prove it...i'm more than happy to say i'm wrong as my own opinions have been all over the place since i took interest in this topic and have no trouble admitting fault should that be the case...i'm a big fan of numbers, logic, and challenges so would be absolutely fascinated if you did come up with anything partially concrete...i have no idea what everyone else thinks of the way i've laid things out and it's possible that i'm in my own world on this one...i've put together enough data to prove to myself that even though i feel a certain way about the rarity stats and the way i think they should be, even i can't argue with the numbers i've gotten...i'm actually quite happy to retire from this topic entirely as i've found a certain closure having done all that i can to get to the bottom of what it's all about...i trust sly's wisdom and judgment and am confident he will choose a suitable way of displaying rarity %...i realize now that i was right a few days ago in thinking that some people will never be happy with how rarity is calculated and that this will be a reoccuring topic...not much we can do about that other than trying to help them see the bigger picture...

Edited October 23, 2016 by ProfBambam55

[mekktor]

Just a quick example of averages not working with such games — difficulty trophies in The Last of Us Remastered:

 

This is a clear example of a DLC pack where the old stat is the best choice (ie. DLC included on-disc). There are also DLC packs where the current stat is best (eg. when there is an easy trophy for starting up the DLC). The geometric mean is just an average of the two stats, nothing more. Is it going to be more accurate than using one of the other two methods? In the above two examples, no of course not. What about more generally? Possibly, and I think ProfBambam has given us a great place to start investigating this.

 

free, paid, or only available by traveling to the moon

 

Man, this moon exclusive DLC really gets me angry. When are these game companies going to start thinking about players who don't want to invest hundreds of billions of dollars to keep their 100% completion? 

 

somebody earning a trophy in a game/DLC more often than not proves they have played it, therefore own it...far better number than just saying "everyone owns it", as proven by the data in our chart...there seems to be a concensus that we would like rarity to somewhat demonstrate an attempts vs success ratio as we are doing with the base game totals so this method of determining ownership also helps in satisfying that criteria...

 

We are going full circle with this. As you have said, no method is perfect. The current method has it's own disadvantages including the fact that it's not a measurement of rarity by any definition (unlike the old method which is). It is just an estimate which comes close to what we want it to in some (maybe even most) cases. It also has scaling issues.

 

With the old method, I think scaling is it's biggest problem. That is easily fixed though with something like BlindMango's proposal (to re-categorize rarities). Rarities calculated using the old method are also affected by extra factors such as cost, availability etc. Factors which should not be included due to it being inconsistent with how the base game is calculated (the idea of attempts vs successes).

 

Comparing the two methods so directly is a waste of time. They are not even measuring the same thing. The more important thing to think about is:

 

What do we want rarity to mean for DLC trophies and what are we willing to compromise to get there? If there is an underlying disagreement about what we want from the rarity statistic, then it will never be possible to agree on a method to calculate it.

 

The main views I've seen come up are:

1. It has to be the most accurate method available to us - this would be the old method. You might not like the results, but they are technically a correct measurement of rarity. Scale the rarity requirements as appropriate to make them more comparable to the base game. Accept that DLC trophy rarity is not a direct measurement of attempts vs successes.
2. It has to represent our idea of rarity - then an estimate is required, be it the current method, geometric average of two methods, or some other unknown miracle method. Possibly, call it something else to make it clear it is only an estimate which most closely resembles attempts vs successes.
3. It has to do both of the above or nothing at all - not possible so we need to remove rarity for DLC trophies altogether.

 Personally, I prefer #2 only if a suitable method can be found (I don't consider the current method suitable). Otherwise, #1 is the way to go.

[StacFace92]

this is interesting but i'm not sure if it would change the numbers to be more accurate...just look at what you're asking:

1- roughly 3 000 000 people would need to go through all their trophy lists looking for boxes to check off...

2- for them to be honest

3- for them to use this site and be aware that they even have the option

4- etc. human error potential is never good

the data we have now is in a sense a lot more concrete than this...

 

and then what about the situation where a game is released without dlc, then dlc is added as it's created, and then a GOTY edition with all DLC is released?....what box do i check and should we calculate all cases differently...isn't it better to just look at the somewhat accurate data we have now and see if it kind of makes sense as a whole?...i don't disagree with games that are released with all DLC such as PS4 TLoU and The Walking Dead 2 to be marked differently but do they really make a huge difference to the overall trends?...and is it worth the time and effort to calculate them differently?...

 

If it was just randomly implemented one day I agree it wouldn't work, but I think if it was announced on the site and there was a link or somewhere on your profile to click to easily get a list of your DLCs with no trophies earned then a lot of people would spend 5-10 mins going through it to get those trophies out of their unearned trophies/trophy advisor.  Honesty doesn't seem like an issue to me considering that (a) the current system assumes they don't have it, so even if 99% of people lied we'd still have a slight improvement on the statistics and (b.) people can already affect main game stats in the same way by deleting/hiding 0% lists, so it's consistent.

 

As far as I'm aware the only profiles on this site are ones that have been added, so most people on here will use the site.  There'll obviously be exceptions where people have added their friends or no longer use the site, just like there'll be people who have a DLC and tick to say they don't.  We can't get an actual accurate statistic, but at least this way it's based on something rather than random guesses or an outright "everyone/noone has it" which is obviously not going to be the case.

 

Regarding DLC being added at a later date there'd probably be a way to program it so that the box for not having DLC is auto-ticked for everyone with that game at the time the DLC is released (with the option to untick of course) but then after that it's assumed you have it unless you tick you don't.  For GOTY editions it'd work the same unless there was a separate GOTY list and it was reported as one like how I said before.  In regards to what box you check it'd be a simple yes/no for each DLC - if you have it you'd tick yes, whether you bought it as an individual DLC, have it as part of the season pass or it came with it on a GOTY edition.

Edited October 23, 2016 by StacFace92

[ProfBambamGTAIV]

here is an account that i used only for the purpose of making a guide and videos for it, to test the credibility of my methods of obtaining trophies and to help people boost GTA IV before the online servers were scheduled to be shut down a few years ago...and yes, i have 2 ps3's...had it not been for this topic i likely never would've logged onto this site again with this account...with this account i played the GTA IV DLC but only for the purpose of making youtube videos...if i was honest i would tick both DLC on my list as owned...i could also just tick the first DLC and no one would know the difference....i also have another account, PieAreSquare55 which i have no recollection of how it ended up being tracked by this site but is in fact being tracked...it is used mainly by my wife/kids or for the purpose of boosting when i have a session planned and am short one player...i have used it recently while doing the assassin's creed series and a while back for batman arkham origins mp but have no idea why the trophy lists don't appear at all (perhaps because i haven't synced my trophies in a while)...not sure if 0% stopped being tracked at a certain point in time as other 0% games appear on the profile...now i would also need to create an account on this site for the pie account, and try to remember if i've played the DLC or not...from a trophy hunter perspective what should i do and what totals should i be included in?...assume i never came across this topic and have no idea it is being tracked...you are saying i'm a game owner therefore DLC owner although i've never even loaded up the GTA IV DLC on the pie account and at the same time i wouldn't be included in rarity stats as is despite playing the DLC only in the case of assassin's creed revelations...seems weird that this would be perceived more accurate...exception to the rule, i understand...but what if it's not?...i'm not sure how to calculate this...
 
the other thing to consider is human error...i had an interesting situation earlier in the week where i mentioned this topic of rarity to a client and it turns out he also plays PS3, but couldn't care less about DLC, trophies, or this site's stats...i looked him up and he is being tracked by this site...then yesterday i went with my daughter to one of her friend's houses and her father had a PS3 set up...i asked him about his gaming habits and mentioned trophies to which he said "i like trophies" and got all excited...i figured i'd just made my new best friend but further investigation led to him admitting he couldn't care less if he unlocks one or not but likes the ding it makes when they randomly come up when he plays, which is like twice a year...impressively enough he's a level 8...upon coming home i checked his ID on this site...he is also being tracked...(for the record, incredibly cool dude, still my new best friend)...so strange but proof that not everyone who is being tracked is an active member or even knows of this site...i wonder how many more cases like this there are...do i have to PM them and ask them to join the site and check/uncheck DLC if a new system was implemented?...since that is just 2 cases it's hard to form a conclusion, and i don't know if we have any numbers available...perhaps count people with at least 1 post in the last year as active users?...but why stop at one year and what if they never come back?...from a trophy hunter perspective i'd prefer not to be compared to these kind of players or to my alternate accounts for rarity % and wouldn't assume that people who check/unchecked a box would represent any kind of accuracy...just my opinion...
 

continuing on from the perspective of a trophy hunter, which i admit i have become biaised towards since analyzing numbers, attempts vs success does and doesn't make sense...on the one hand it would help the stats to consider it an owner from the perpective of rarity, by definition, but on the other it wouldn't from the perspective off attempts vs successes which tells me more accurately who, of the trophy hunters and lovers of a specific game, has actually earned a trophy which i'd prefer to be compared to...if we are insistent upon rarity, by definition being represented in our stat, then the "achievers" stat(not DLC, not base game, i mean achievers for any given trophy) is by far more accurate than making assumptions about ownership...if 111 people tracked on this site have achieved a trophy, that's rare by definition...i do agree that the rarity % will never make sense so calling the stat we have now something else is definitely a good idea...average achiever % or something like that might be better...this is also a kind of funny story of my 5-year-old daughter's wisdom...ealier today my son, who is 2, was calling a chicken a "grooster" (combining goose and rooster, brilliant word) and i was trying to tell him it's a chicken...my daugher interjected and said "he can call it whatever he wants"...haha...so much wisdom...unrelated to topic, love my kids, just thought i'd share...
 
i think we will have to agree to disagree on game owners, meaning DLC owners, as i just don't get it and especially not on a website designed for video games and trophy hunting...the most confusing idea to me is this: "i want stats to be calculated from everybody including people who couldn't care less about trophies but i want my stats to be seen as special because i am a trophy hunter"...what?...so are you a trophy hunter or not?...if yes, then why not attempts vs successes?...if not, then why care about rarity at all?...strange, but just my opinion...what i found when looking at the numbers in the chart and the now famous TLoU comes to mind is that, despite people having access to the DLC in the remastered version and having to pay for it on the PS3 version, the %s stay roughly the same...since more people have access to the DLC i expected them to be different with the exception of the one DLC for completing grounded...when i compared the games suggested in the chart i didn't feel that the old stat represented anything significant aside from DLC that had few or only difficult trophies but that is just my honest interpretation...they seemed to be the exception to the rule when trying to find a balance between all factors that may affect their rarity, which are of course subjective...

final question, is anyone reading this thread not interested in video games and/or a trophy hunting and just stumbled upon this by accident?...if yes, then i'm impressed...how about this site?...is anyone in the category of "i don't like video games or trophies, i just like this community"?...haha...to repeat what i've been trying to say about attempts vs successes representing us best...why bother even including anyone who is not a member of this site?...the stat will never be perfect but as is can we find a common ground or at least agree to disagree on some things and at least look at possible numbers?...in my previous post i stated that i'm pretty much ready to retire from this topic as i've found a truth that satisfies what was a few weeks ago a confusing unknown and i think that i've done my best to provide data to analyze given the current circumstances for rarity % calculations...if trying to make a calculation rule that applies to all trophies and all games it will inevitably come down to opinions and differences as there will be exceptions to any rule...i think i've analyzed this topic too much and have become victim of missing the bigger picture myself...i apologise if anyone has taken offense in anything i've posted up to this point...probably better if i stay out of rarity % discussions as my overanalysis has also led to bias...good luck in sorting it all out...

Edited October 23, 2016 by ProfBambamGTAIV

[StacFace92]

Yeah of the two I'd expect it to go more towards trophies being more rare due to people who don't have the DLC not knowing/bothering to check the box rather than being like it is now from people who have the DLC lying about it.  I know it won't be accurate, but neither will the other suggestions as there's no way to get an accurate statistic in terms of just those with the DLC.  The way I see it the site considers DLC to be part of the game in all the other stats, so the old method was more consistent.  The reason it was changed (from what I've seen people say) was because DLC trophies were too rare, so allowing people to declare they don't have the DLC would be to take the edge off that, rather than to give a stat that's supposedly accurate (which is impossible as things are now).  Yes, there'll be easy DLC trophies with a rarity that implies otherwise, but you'd also find the same issue with an easy trophy in the main game that doesn't come until later on in the story.

[B1rvine]

Okay, so here's my two cents that probably nobody will read in this 17 page topic...  FYI I haven't read the entire thread but I skimmed the first and last several pages so if I'm repeating anything, apologies.  So 2 things:

 

Use Sony's stats.  It's the most accurate.  And then come up with new classifications of rarity. Ultra rare could be for less than 0.5% instead of 5%.  Adding new measurements would be a good idea too.  At least this way everyone's in the same boat for statistics and its just finding new measurements to compete against etc. Basically this change make us re-examine what's considered "rare" and noteworthy to show off with, but it'd be accurate, and everyone would have to adjust to the same thing instead of one camp here and one camp there.

 

But since that's not gonna happen ^^ , generally people either own all of the DLC or none of it, at least when it comes to DLC that adds trophies.  Perhaps while you're all debating this, games with multiple DLC packs could be clumped together.  Meaning, unlock one DLC trophy and the PSNP assumes you own all of it when calculating other packs rarities.

Edited October 24, 2016 by B1rvine

[Elvick_]

Either way you track them is incorrect in someone's eye, so the situation is probably never going to change.

How? PSN doesn't wait for you to buy DLC before putting the trophies on your profile. Whether you own the DLC or not is irrelevant. So why should it be completely different here? How is it at all "wrong" to do it the exact same way PSN does? People will always complain about something, doesn't mean you go with the most wonky option and ignore everyone else that has better options to go with.

 

A DLC should be added to your account only if you buy and play it. And I'm not talking only about PSNP. In the PSN a DLC shouldn't appear unless you buy and play like every game does. This is not even an opinion. It's how it should be.

wat, that most certainly is an opinion. How digital rewards work is to be determined by whoever makes them, there is nothing objective here. There is no scientific method to prove what you're saying, because it's subjective.

And I doubt the PSN backend would allow that, not even sure if Xbox Live works that way, didn't last I knew, and MS has a way better infrastructure overall than Sony.

Edited October 24, 2016 by Elvick_

[FawltyPowers]

I completely agree with what Winston wrote. When you install the main game then only the trophy list for the main game should appear on your profile. It's annoying when a developer releases new content and it automatically gets added to your profile. It should only appear when you install it.

 

You are right in that there is no infrastructure in place for this, you are also right in that it is subjective so to me if Sony ever decided to update the trophy system then the user should be given an option in their profile for if they want new trophy content to be automatically added or only added if installed.

[Manuelito]

How? PSN doesn't wait for you to buy DLC before putting the trophies on your profile. Whether you own the DLC or not is irrelevant. So why should it be completely different here? How is it at all "wrong" to do it the exact same way PSN does? People will always complain about something, doesn't mean you go with the most wonky option and ignore everyone else that has better options to go with.

wat, that most certainly is an opinion. How digital rewards work is to be determined by whoever makes them, there is nothing objective here. There is no scientific method to prove what you're saying, because it's subjective.

And I doubt the PSN backend would allow that, not even sure if Xbox Live works that way, didn't last I knew, and MS has a way better infrastructure overall than Sony.

they shouldn't put in your account something that you didn't buy. I buy main game? You put main game list. If I decide to buy a DLC it should get added otherwise no.