SITE RULES FOR FLAGGING/BANNING

[xD4rK_By_D3s1gNx]

Just now, Rellite said:

I will consider this a partial success, as I would prefer these to be posted on the main page.

I have never found the need to browse the forums for rules until after I was flagged, and was not aware that this could occur. 

It would be nice to see these rules and others listed in a disclaimer when creating a login for the site, and additionally mentioned or linked to elsewhere on the main page. 

Thank you for taking the time and consideration to hear me out, I do appreciate your efforts.

Thank you,

Rellite

Just an FYI, what BlindMango has done is essential an instant fix to your plight.

Adding them to the main page/when you create an account requires a heck of a lot more time and testing to implement.

It also depends on whether Sly deems it necessary.

[MMDE]

1 minute ago, demonoid321 said:

I really wish they had a system where you can vote on how reliable people are on the boosting page. I've been screwed over too many times by people who don't show up (people not showing up has happened more then people actually showing up for me) and it would be nice to have a star ranking system like: 1 ★ = not reliable 5 ★'s = really reliable. And yeah I know people have real life issues and stuff that may cause people not to show up. But It still would be a nice implement to the site.

 

uhm...

 

 

 

 

[Rellite]

I understand what I am asking, and as a premium member who has made a donation to the owners to contribute to the hard work and upkeep of the page, I do not feel I am being unreasonable.

Edited May 19, 2017 by Rellite

[RobThanatos]

3 minutes ago, demonoid321 said:

I really wish they had a system where you can vote on how reliable people are on the boosting page. I've been screwed over too many times by people who don't show up (people not showing up has happened more then people actually showing up for me) and it would be nice to have a star ranking system like: 1 ★ = not reliable 5 ★'s = really reliable. And yeah I know people have real life issues and stuff that may cause people not to show up. But It still would be a nice implement to the site.

There is. Go back to your session page after it's over.

[demonoid321]

Just now, Nuttro93 said:

There is. Go back to your session page after it's over.

? I didn't even realize that I was a thing now.. My bad I never go back and check the seasons once there over  

[BlindMango]

Yeah Sly should add some sort of "Terms of Service" or site rules, privacy, etc at the bottom-right of the site - we get a lot of questions about those things nowadays, it would be really useful! Obviously it would be a bit of work to piece together though

 

Edited May 19, 2017 by BlindMango

[xD4rK_By_D3s1gNx]

6 minutes ago, Rellite said:

I understand what I am asking, and as a premium member who has made a donation to the owners to contribute to the hard work and upkeep of the page, I do not feel I am being unreasonable.

What your asking for is not unreasonable, premium member or not.

That's one of the reasons this forum exists, for giving site feedback/recommend improvements.

It however is not something that can be done overnight.

[thegirlruka]

I just need to but in here and say that flagging is 100% intended to call you a cheater. I too was once under the guise that it was "to remove incorrect times" but the failure to flag incorrect vita and ps4 times over the years because they 'haven't been hacked yet' --they have-- means that flagging is calling you a cheater. People have done the same things with their ps4 save files that would result in a flag on a ps3 game and they remained unflagged. So @BlindMango, be sure to append "on ps3 and multiplatform games only" to your list of ways to be flagged since you can do the same thing on the other consoles and receive no flag.

Edited May 19, 2017 by kuuhaku

[MMDE]

16 minutes ago, kuuhaku said:

I just need to but in here and say that flagging is 100% intended to call you a cheater. I too was once under the guise that it was "to remove incorrect times" but the failure to flag incorrect vita and ps4 times over the years because they 'haven't been hacked yet' --they have-- means that flagging is calling you a cheater. People have done the same things with their ps4 save files that would result in a flag on a ps3 game and they remained unflagged. So @BlindMango, be sure to append "on ps3 and multiplatform games only" to your list of ways to be flagged since you can do the same thing on the other consoles and receive no flag.

 

I really don't think "on ps3 and multiplatform games only" message should be added. This is a terrible message to send to people, and once they eventually become reportable, this will just backfire big time.

[Cleggworth]

@BlindMango I have a suggestion for something that is not flaggable which I don't think is covered by the current list. Changing the system clock or calender to pop trophies with time/date requirements at/on incorrect times/dates. i.e. Little Big Planet 2 has trophies for playing before 9am and after 9pm. The guide here includes changing the system clock as a method to get these

 

I'm not sure how many games have trophies that you can do this but I think its worth including in any case

[MMDE]

7 minutes ago, Cleggworth said:

@BlindMango I have a suggestion for something that is not flaggable which I don't think is covered by the current list. Changing the system clock or calender to pop trophies with time/date requirements at/on incorrect times/dates. i.e. Little Big Planet 2 has trophies for playing before 9am and after 9pm. The guide here includes changing the system clock as a method to get these

 

I'm not sure how many games have trophies that you can do this but I think its worth including in any case

 

Yeah, this kind of stuff is okay, and it won't affect time stamps like some people think!  It is actually useful for a lot of different games. I remember one game I played, it had like 20% more levels if you played it on Halloween, or another had a secret extra character!  

Edited May 19, 2017 by MMDE

[ProfBambam55]

I tested out the method for hacked lobbies on an alt earlier and it didn't work...would suggest an update to the "go here" thread (details there)...I can replicate it and record it if evidence is needed...but not willing to share publicly...

[Dr_Mayus]

3 hours ago, MMDE said:

 

CoD WaW isn't like that AFAIK, it's a game with a save file without the usual encryption. People could just download a file and put it inside a folder you already had a copy of a save from that game in, and then just transfer it to your console and use it as normal. Do correct me if I'm wrong about this. This is the case with some few early games. Games like Fuel, FIFA 09, CoD WaW etc, I think LBP2 may have been such a case too, but the three first are very known for this because they had difficult trophies. FIFA 09 and Fuel had trophies that quickly became unobtainable due to the servers going down. CoD WaW had the difficult Veteran playthrough, which doesn't play like the other CoD games due to non-regenerating health etc. Obviously, if I get anything wrong about this, it is because I've not played any of these games or done any of this.

Socom Confrontation is another one.

 

[rdhight]

Don't really have a horse in this fight, but as someone with a PS3 who kind of drifted into trophy hunting gradually without ever sitting down to "learn the rules," I appreciate those who took the time to delineate what is flaggable and what is allowed. Thanks!

[Stardroid]

Let's put this "Innocent until proven guilty" to bed forever. I am still baffled that people think such a system would work on a site like this. If you are in favour of such a system, I propose you must also be in favour of this website having access to private information about the disputant. Such as mails, access to games, access to close family for alibies and access to their internet history... You see, in order for innocent until proven guilty to be implemented, one must have access to the necessary tools to complement such a system with. Psnprofiles does not have these tools and with good reason. I don't want them to have the right to have access to information that is private. This is why guilty until proven innocent is a much better system and this system is even complemented by three chances before one is removed completely. In other words, there will be people who are falsely flagged, but it's not the end of the world for them. 

What is the end of the leaderboards, though, is innocent until proven guilty. In the absence of the tools necessary for such a system, every disputant can just make up a story and there is no way for us to claim otherwise. Hacked CoD trophies? Well, I was in a hacked lobby. Little Big Planet trophies popped too close to each other? Well, my little sister looked it up on the internet and used a save. How will psnprofiles as a website truly dispute these claims? They can't. That is why I am baffled that so many people clearly aren't bright enough to think these things true. It's all nice and ideal, this innocent until proven guilty, but think of the consequences before you speak. It's nice to have a debate about it, but even though I have put these points forward and never got a good rebuttal to them, this system is being repeated by the same people. Which tells me that these people are not interested in a good system, they are interested in being right. Which is a shameful attitude to have. 

 

That's also why I ask the creators/keepers of this website to keep their healthy thinking skills intact. You have no tools to readily implent "innocent until proven guilty". You can not prove the guilt of anyone if they make claims that are beyond your ability to even investigate, let alone dispute. The people who cry the loudest are the ones who have already been refuted or the one's who are no longer on the leaderboard.

 

That being said, I am for putting up clearly defined rules and their reasoning behind it. 

Edited May 19, 2017 by FOX

[Kubanga]

There should also be a system for people to flag games. Either a team reviews the submitted flags to make sure there's actual reasoning for the flag OR a team of 20-30 people can scour the leaderboards for hacked trophies. Quite frankly I'm fucking SICK and TIRED of asshats running around banning people either because they are butthurt because someone got a trophy that they aren't good enough to obtain or the person has no clue in the world about what they're flagging and just flag it anyways cause you know YOLO. There needs to be parameters on these flags.

[Se7en]

21 minutes ago, FOX said:

You have no tools to readily implent "innocent until proven guilty".

 

You are wrong. There are already examples in dispute sub-forum where @MMDE and other community members were able to disprove very plausible but still fake stories, by providing links to web archive, posts and profiles of dispute starter on some save files sharing web sites. Yes, it requires more work to do than just flag “impossible” time stamps and consider flagged person guilty.

 

If someone is so obsessed with purity of leaderboards, it is that person’s duty to do some hard work to find irrefutable evidence against cheater to remove them from leaderboards. Not the wrongly accused players have to deal with “not the end of the world for them” situation of being falsely flagged because of someone’s obsession with leaderboards but lack of hard proof.

[Stardroid]

8 minutes ago, Se7en said:

 

You are wrong. There are already examples in dispute sub-forum where @MMDE and other community members were able to disprove very plausible but still fake stories, by providing links to web archive, posts and profiles of dispute starter on some save files sharing web sites. Yes, it requires more work to do than just flag “impossible” time stamps and consider flagged person guilty.

 

If someone is so obsessed with purity of leaderboards, it is that person’s duty to do some hard work to find irrefutable evidence against cheater to remove them from leaderboards. Not the wrongly accused players have to deal with “not the end of the world for them” situation of being falsely flagged because of someone’s obsession with leaderboards but lack of hard proof.

I knew I should have clarified because a comment like this would happen. The only reason why MMDE could do this was because the disputant was stupid enough to leave tracks (hacks and timestamps). The fake stories that I am talking about are obviously stories that we can not track. Also, purity of a leaderboard should be a given, not an obsession. 
So, if I decide to hack ten platinums and I claim it was never me, someone hacked my profile. How will you prove that I am lying? Through which tools will you do so? You won't, that's what you'll do and I'll just go freely. And it's only a matter of time before other cheaters adapt the same tactic of coming up with excuses that can not be proven against. What is so hard to understand about it? MMDE busting members is an exception, and also because their claims could actually be investigated. Not all claims can be, as a matter of fact, the majority of claims that come in can't be investigated. As I stated before, in order to make this system work, you'd have bo breach privacy. It's unfair to implement a system which automatically favours the cheaters as it's so easy to bypass.

 

Also, MMDE himself is in agreement with me that this system wouldn't work. So that's telling you something.

Edited May 19, 2017 by FOX

[iAlphaSoldier]

I'm someone who is usually pretty active in the disputes, so it may be surprising what I have to say.

 

I'm all for removing cheaters, but I do not agree with the way things are handled here. It's not a comment on the person if they get flagged, but to remove non-legit timestamps with trophies, I know that.

 

I haven't read every single post here, so I might be copying someone else with this. What I suggest is the following for the report system:

 

- Only let members flag a user for games they have played themselves. Sure, anybody can read a trophy guide and if there are known glitches for a game, but theory and reality are different things. You aren't allowed to drive a car or fly a plane just because you read a book about it. You have to have the hours put into it to get your license, because only then you know the mechanics of it and how it behaves.

 

- If a flag gets made and doesn't provide concrete evidence to suggest the trophies weren't earned legit, don't let the flag be official and delete the report. Concrete evidence meaning that there should be a source provided with the report (trophy guide, link that lists all possible glitches, post that says servers shut down, etc.). Basically just something that backs up the reporter's reason given. Even back in Kindergarten you couldn't just say the guy did something to you. You had to have some sort of proof of it.

 

- Lock the leaderboards/trophy for trophy's that are no longer available. If a server has been shut down and the trophy still pops, it's obviously not legit. There's a thread on this very site that lists all these kind of trophies and is updated regularly.

 

- Remove the 3 trophy minimum when making a report. If just one trophy has been obviously earned illegitimately, then why the need to report 2 more random trophies that are fine?

 

Just writing down the rules for everyone (not just forum visitors to see) and have everyone agree to is the basic stuff that shouldn't be discussed. But in addition, the flagging system itself should implement the above mentioned stuff to make it more fair to the person getting reported. Reporting someone has consequences and a reporter should have guidelines to follow as well.

 

 

[damon8r351]

11 minutes ago, iAlphaSoldier said:

- Only let members flag a user for games they have played themselves. Sure, anybody can read a trophy guide and if there are known glitches for a game, but theory and reality are different things. You aren't allowed to drive a car or fly a plane just because you read a book about it. You have to have the hours put into it to get your license, because only then you know the mechanics of it and how it behaves.

 

I once made that exact same point, amongst many others, in regards to improving the dispute system. The response? "I'd rather work on something else", and the thread was locked.

Edited May 19, 2017 by damon8r351

[iAlphaSoldier]

4 minutes ago, damon8r351 said:

 

I once made that exact same point, amongst many others, in regards to improving the dispute system. The response? "I'd rather work on something else", and the thread was locked.

 

Seriously? The site is privately owned so the admin can do whatever he feels like, but you'd think a site which is relying on a community would try and make it a good place for as many people as possible and not alienate them.

[Se7en]

4 hours ago, BlindMango said:

Feel free to offer ways to improve/change wording, add to it, etc.

 

I’d like to suggest changing “can be flagged by premium members” to “can be reported by premium members”, then “Once a member flags somebody” to “Once a member reports somebody”, and finally “member may falsely flag” to “member may falsely report”.

 

Then in missing time stamps paragraph: “unless it becomes highly suspicious” to “unless these are online-only trophies which could not be earned without previously setting up online PSN account”.

 

25 minutes ago, FOX said:

The only reason why MMDE could do this was because the disputant was stupid enough to leave tracks (hacks and timestamps).

 

And amongst the real-life offenders only those stupid enough to leave evidence against them get the punishment. Punishing left and right everyone suspected until they prove their innocence is not a good thing in general, and I honestly don’t see what is it so important about trophies to set this horrible principle as the official policy with regard to leaderboards.

[Stardroid]

1 minute ago, Se7en said:

 

I’d like to suggest changing “can be flagged by premium members” to “can be reported by premium members”, then “Once a member flags somebody” to “Once a member reports somebody”, and finally “member may falsely flag” to “member may falsely report”.

 

Then in missing time stamps paragraph: “unless it becomes highly suspicious” to “unless these are online-only trophies which could not be earned without previously setting up online PSN account”.

 

 

And amongst the real-life offenders only those stupid enough to leave evidence against them get the punishment. Punishing left and right everyone suspected until they prove their innocence is not a good thing in general, and I honestly don’t see what is it so important about trophies to set this horrible principle as the official policy with regard to leaderboards.

 

I'm afraid it doesn't take a smart person to figure out these excuses on how to bypass innocent until proven guilty. And punishing left and right? Please, what is it with the hypberbole mass hysteria? People are flagged, mostly correctly. And yes, as I have explained, it is a good thing, or at least the best thing we can do. You are not putting forward arguments, just claims without substance. 

If I say "guilty until proven innocent is the best system", then that proves nothing. I have told people for the third time now. If you want to implent innocent until proven guilty, then you must be willing to sacrifice your privacy to make it work. A lot of people don't seem to understand what this system actually entails. You people do realise that this system is only possible when psnprofiles can actually investigate the claims right? In a court, when I say my sister did it, then they will come for my sister and ask her questions, they will look at my mails, they will check alibies, they will interrogate me multiple times and a lot of paperwork too. What will psnprofiles do? Will they call my sister and ask if it's really true that she cheated trophies for me? Don't be ridiculous, it will never work and it makes zero sense to implement it. It has also been pointed out that people get three flags before they're off the leaderboard, which is fair and a just thing to do in case someone does get wrongly flagged. So why do you not take this into account? It IS the best system for obvious reasons. 
 

40 minutes ago, iAlphaSoldier said:

I'm someone who is usually pretty active in the disputes, so it may be surprising what I have to say.

 

I'm all for removing cheaters, but I do not agree with the way things are handled here. It's not a comment on the person if they get flagged, but to remove non-legit timestamps with trophies, I know that.

 

I haven't read every single post here, so I might be copying someone else with this. What I suggest is the following for the report system:

 

- Only let members flag a user for games they have played themselves. Sure, anybody can read a trophy guide and if there are known glitches for a game, but theory and reality are different things. You aren't allowed to drive a car or fly a plane just because you read a book about it. You have to have the hours put into it to get your license, because only then you know the mechanics of it and how it behaves.

 

- If a flag gets made and doesn't provide concrete evidence to suggest the trophies weren't earned legit, don't let the flag be official and delete the report. Concrete evidence meaning that there should be a source provided with the report (trophy guide, link that lists all possible glitches, post that says servers shut down, etc.). Basically just something that backs up the reporter's reason given. Even back in Kindergarten you couldn't just say the guy did something to you. You had to have some sort of proof of it.

 

- Lock the leaderboards/trophy for trophy's that are no longer available. If a server has been shut down and the trophy still pops, it's obviously not legit. There's a thread on this very site that lists all these kind of trophies and is updated regularly.

 

- Remove the 3 trophy minimum when making a report. If just one trophy has been obviously earned illegitimately, then why the need to report 2 more random trophies that are fine?

 

Just writing down the rules for everyone (not just forum visitors to see) and have everyone agree to is the basic stuff that shouldn't be discussed. But in addition, the flagging system itself should implement the above mentioned stuff to make it more fair to the person getting reported. Reporting someone has consequences and a reporter should have guidelines to follow as well.

 

 

I agree with this, although I would given an option to at least notify someone else in case haven't played a particular game but I know it's cheated. Devil May Cry for example. People use a save where they can pop all difficulty related trophies in seconds while the playthroughs don't stack. Even though I have not played a DmC game, I'd still like at least someone who has played the game to be notified by it.

[weavsxx]

2 hours ago, FOX said:

What is the end of the leaderboards, though, is innocent until proven guilty. 

 

Leaderboards already ended when trophy hacking got introduced for PS3, including the possibility to hack / manipulate time stamps

I agree that innocent until proven guilty is a dumb statement though, it's not court lmao

 

That being said: I do think some people deserve a second chance with some games, indeed giving them an 'unfair advantage' over 'legitimate' players (cannot be based on anything thanks to time stamp manipulating) but only for games that are known to be prone to randomly popping trophies or online lobbies / glitching

The reasoning behind this is that these games are a minority (GTA IV, Black Ops II, WaW and friends) -- and one unlucky individual could have their entire trophy career ruined because of that one game, which to me, outweighs a leaderboard with''legitimate'' stamps only. It can't be helped.

These games should be listed, and the individual should be reviewed. Of course, if someone has very suspicious time stamps on games that have save file encryptment or aren't known for these issues, the person in question should hide those trophies

 

I have a question to the people in this thread that are removed from the leaderboards; why not hide some trophies so you're back on it?

 

 

Edited May 19, 2017 by weavsxx

[Stardroid]

4 minutes ago, weavsxx said:

 

Leaderboards already ended when trophy hacking got introduced for PS3, including the possibility to hack / manipulate time stamps

I agree that innocent until proven guilty is a dumb statement though, it's not court lmao

 

That being said: I do think some people deserve a second chance with some games, indeed giving them an 'unfair advantage' over 'legitimate' players (cannot be based on anything thanks to time stamp manipulating) but only for games that are known to be prone to randomly popping trophies or online lobbies / glitching

The reasoning behind this is that these games are a minority (GTA IV, Black Ops II, WaW and friends) -- and one unlucky individual could have their entire trophy career ruined because of that one game, which to me, outweighs a leaderboard with''legitimate'' stamps only. It can't be helped.

These games should be listed, and the individual should be reviewed. Of course, if someone has very suspicious time stamps on games that have save file encryptment or aren't

known for the issues, the person in question should hide those trophies

 

I have a question in regards to the people in this thread that are removed from the leaderboards; why not hide some trophies so you're back on the leaderboards?

 

 

They do, people have to be flagged three times (and permanently so) in order for them to disappear from the leaderboards. I think three flags is fair as five seems excessive. You can have bad luck once, twice, but trice and you're out. The people in here who are no longer on the leaderboards often already have three games flagged. I have noticed some of them being very active in these threads. To me, most of them have zero credibility as it's obvious they mean to exploit innocent until proven guilty for their own benefit. Even a blind dude can see that this system has no place here. 

41 minutes ago, Torracat83 said:

This site is getting so toxic. Barnum and Bailey is closing this weekend, so it's getting to the point that you can come here if you want to see the fucking circus.

Edgy comment that contributes nothing to the discussion

- But this site is getting toxic doe

Edited May 19, 2017 by FOX