Zenpai

Copyright law needs a major overhaul

65 posts in this topic

7 minutes ago, Sanetsuken said:

 

 

I'll take the jailtime if you take the public flogging for enabling the absolute vast amount of greed prevalent in the videogames industry, an industry mind you, that has taken to taking out content of games that are finished and selling them back to you as a consumer piecemeal.

 

On topic though I used to pirate when I simply couldn't afford buying all the games more or less blind (this was before I learned to understand what a game was like before release or something) and with demos rapidly dying out I instead pirated the game, played until I was satisfied and deleted it. Once I got a job I ended up buying the games I've previously pirated to a massive degree. Don't regret it a second.

 

What greed? I keep hearing the same thing over and over again and I have yet to see any proof to yours or others claimed.

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2 minutes ago, MMX20 said:

What greed? I keep hearing the same thing over and over again and I have yet to see any proof to yours or others claimed.

 

There have been multiple proven cases of developers witholding content in games that are already on the disc and selling "DLC" with a 100kb key as downloadable to unlock that content. Furthermore anyone who's been in the videogame industry for a lenght of time can attest that games in modern days are getting smaller in content exactly because they can be sold back through a DLC package.

 

And if you can't recall a single game where you bought a dlc only to discover the downloadable file was 100kb (which is exactly what those keys were), you're either too new or outright ignorant to the practice. 

 

But for a modest example to start with consider a relatively old game like def jam: fight for NY. The game had an in-game store you spent in-game currency (because there were no connecting to servers at the time thank god) to customize your character, buying clothes, bling and whatever else you wanted. The degree of customization was high. Fast forward to today. Dead or alive 6 has "season pass 1" (emphasis on the 1 there) for 93 dollars. For that price you get 2 characters and about 60 costumes.  Now, they're different games sure, but the key point is they're released in different eras. The difference in monetization is staggering.

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2 hours ago, ERGOPROXY-DECAY said:

The things I had downloaded, I wouldn't have bought it or rented it anyways. I'm just that cheap. So when big companies talk about how many millions they lost to people like me, wellll. They never would had made a cent from me either way.

 

I wonder if all the "pirates" would feel the same way if the situation were reversed.  If they were the people who had put forth time and effort to create something and other people simply took advantage of that work without compensating them.

 

It seems all nice and harmless when it's little old you taking advantage of the big, bad corporation.  But it wouldn't be nearly as much fun if your boss came into your cubicle one day and said something like "I like your work, but I'm cheap and I don't feel like paying much for it.  So instead of giving you your $15/hour, here are a couple of coupons to Dunkin Donuts and the spare change rattling around inside the couch of my office."

 

If people don't like having to pay for decryption keys to unlock content within games that's already on disc but not available from the start, pirates are a big reason why.  Because that big, bad corporation you accuse of robbing the poor gamer isn't going to make you new games if they don't make enough money to stay in business.  To pay their programmers and developers, to bear the other costs of creation, et cetera.  That's simply how an economy works.

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1 hour ago, SnowxSakura said:

Paypal automatically reports income over 20,000$ to the IRS when you sell on ebay, even between multiple seller accounts. The IRS will also report that same income to your state's government for local taxes. You will also receive a 1099K in the mail to fill out.

 

"

Internal Revenue Code (IRC) Section 6050W states that all US payment processors, including PayPal, are required by the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) to provide information to the IRS about certain customers who receive payments for the sale of goods or services through PayPal.

PayPal is required to report gross payments received for sellers who receive over $20,000 in gross payment volume AND over 200 separate payments in a calendar year. In order to help you understand these information reporting obligations, we have prepared the following FAQs. After reviewing the following FAQs, we recommend you consult your tax advisor to assess tax implications of Form 1099-K reporting."

 

https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/irs6050w

 

not sure how it goes for other countries though

So what you are saying (if I am reading this correctly) is you can have a side business where you make $15,000 tax free by selling stuff on eBay...still a lot of money, in fact that is more than a lor of Americans make

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Nintendo is being heavy handed in their approach.  $2 mil for each trademark & $150.000 for every game hosted by those sites?  Come on.  That's a nuclear option.  All that Nintendo really needed to do is file a cease & desist. 

 

As to whether or not people play ROMs with emulators: Frankly, I could care no less.  If Nintendo wants to make money off the games, they should re-release them on the Switch.  PC versions also.  I wish they would go Sega's way, quitting the console business to just make games for PlayStation, Xbox, & PC.

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14 minutes ago, Dr_Mayus said:

So what you are saying (if I am reading this correctly) is you can have a side business where you make $15,000 tax free by selling stuff on eBay...still a lot of money, in fact that is more than a lor of Americans make

The deduction for a single taxpayer is 12,000 dollars, so if you made 12,001+ in a filing season, you are required to report and file a return.

 

It is higher depending on circumstances such as age, or married

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The funniest part about the closure of those sites is that whiners actually thought that they offered exclusive games not found elsewhere. Emuparadise didn't really close but i don't understand why the never actually removed the download pages, they still appear as top results on Google, but you're redirected to that "Emuparadise is changing" page when you try to download something. Other sites simply disabled the Nintendo downloads, put a warning about that, and end of the story.

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10 minutes ago, BlindMango said:

@MMX20 - This is yet another thread I have to clean up because you've been involved in a discussion that's completely derailed the thread. If you're having a conversation with someone on topics like these and it's devolving into name-calling, you will want to either bring it to PM or just tell the person the discussion is going nowhere, otherwise it's all just getting reported and I have to take down the posts anyway

I understand. But thank you for keeping the peace in the forums. And I'll try to not derail a thread again.

 

On topic, this topic is polarzing, but has some good points. And like the saying goes, to each their own. We have our own views on things like this. And we make good points on things like this sometimes.

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27 minutes ago, Lance_87 said:

The funniest part about the closure of those sites is that whiners actually thought that they offered exclusive games not found elsewhere. Emuparadise didn't really close but i don't understand why the never actually removed the download pages, they still appear as top results on Google, but you're redirected to that "Emuparadise is changing" page when you try to download something. Other sites simply disabled the Nintendo downloads, put a warning about that, and end of the story.

 

I believe they may probably be planning to come back at some point once things settle down. Just a thought. I saw on Reddit that the files are still on their servers, just that the download links to those files are not working anymore because they disable them. As far as I know, you can still get the files if you make the right call to the server. That's what I read on Reddit though. Haven't tried that myself to check if it's true but there are many other websites that can be used to get the files without any major problem.

 

Obviously, I'm not posting those sites here but yeah lol

 

I think one of the points that the above users were trying to make before the thread got derailed is that consumers feel companies are being considerably greedy on their most recent practices. Whether if that should entitle people to stick it back to them by getting copyrighted content without paying is a topic of its own. One thing is for certain, though. Practices such as season passes, DLCs, microtransactions and all forms of monetization that have appeared on recently released games do generate negative feedback from consumers, like me, who feel we are being overcharged on a piece of software.

 

Of course, we could simply opt to not buy those games but the point is that companies are trying to cover rising production costs (particularly high on AAA titles) by adding something else to sell you on a game. (I guess for them, it's either that or selling games at launch for like $120-150 instead). Should people stick it back to them for said practices? Maybe yes, maybe no.

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The way I see it nintendo owns any rights to nintendos game. anyone offering their games for free is taking a big risk in doing so, i suppose it does kind of suck a little but... if nintendo don't want you to enjoy their retro titles for free then you shouldn't enjoy their retro titles for free.

 

Simply pirating games though because you don't have enough money to buy them, that in my opinion is not ok...i don't believe in loans or getting something that you can't afford, if you can't afford games then you don't have games just like if you can't afford a speedboat then you don't have a speedboat.

 

I don't think you can complain when an illegal practice gets shut down, they know the risks associated with what they are doing.

Edited by KuromeIsWaifuJ
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2 hours ago, Fing3rButt3r3 said:

Yeah, that's why my piggy avatar and everything is legitimately my own creation so I wont be called out for plagiarizing anyones character or anything. But those rules/laws are different right?

What? No! That's not what I'm saying. I'm talking about developing something or working on an IP that doesn't belong to you and make money out of it.  I'm taking about either blatantly stealing someone else's IP and making it your own or copying someone else's work and calling it something else. 

 

That's what op was talking about in the first paragraph. They created a website that emulated a whole bunch IPs for people to play and the material doesn't belong to them. 

 

You could say oh well some websites don't make money, yes but the original owner would've suffered some potential losses. You could say well they're billionaires they won't feel anything, true but it goes back to the whole thing that I wouldn't want somebody riding off my success. Create your own original ideas.. 

 

Eh you're welcome to disagree but my stance remains

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41 minutes ago, Honor_Hand said:

 

I believe they may probably be planning to come back at some point once things settle down. Just a thought. I saw on Reddit that the files are still on their servers, just that the download links to those files are not working anymore because they disable them. As far as I know, you can still get the files if you make the right call to the server. That's what I read on Reddit though. Haven't tried that myself to check if it's true but there are many other websites that can be used to get the files without any major problem.

 

Obviously, I'm not posting those sites here but yeah lol

 

Yes, i know about that. It's actually something a lot easier, too bad it doesn't work for the game guides and magazines for whatever reason, those were true rarities. At least the forum wasn't touched at all. But i don't think the main site will come back anymore.

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3 hours ago, SnowxSakura said:

It all comes down to the fact that downloading ROMs are ILLEGAL, second hand goods are not

 

 

We're all well aware that piracy is illegal. That's not the issue here. But you're mixing legality with morality. Just because something is illegal doesn't make it unethical. For example, it's illegal to practice many religions in China, that doesn't mean its practitioners are doing anything wrong.

 

I wrote a 5000-word essay arguing not that piracy is legal but rather why I think it's not that big a deal. I think the conversation would go a long way forward if you (and @MMX20) explained why you think it's bad, and not simply stating "well, it's illegal, so clearly it's bad".

 

 

2 hours ago, PooPooBlast said:

I mean... Regardless of how successful your company is or how filthy rich you are, I wouldn't want somebody stealing my ideas or hard work that got me to this position and bank on it. So yea imo the hard crackdown on piracy as well as copying someone else's work is warranted and justified regardless of the outcome. 

 

It's also rule #1 in the education system. Don't plagiarize. 

 

 

Piracy and plagiarism are two very different things. There's also quite a big difference between pirating for your own personal use and pirating to sell the copies to someone else - that is basically trying to take the place of the genuine article in the market and people that do this can rot in jail for all I care.

 

 

1 hour ago, acasser said:

 

I wonder if all the "pirates" would feel the same way if the situation were reversed.  If they were the people who had put forth time and effort to create something and other people simply took advantage of that work without compensating them.

 

It seems all nice and harmless when it's little old you taking advantage of the big, bad corporation.  But it wouldn't be nearly as much fun if your boss came into your cubicle one day and said something like "I like your work, but I'm cheap and I don't feel like paying much for it.  So instead of giving you your $15/hour, here are a couple of coupons to Dunkin Donuts and the spare change rattling around inside the couch of my office."

 

If people don't like having to pay for decryption keys to unlock content within games that's already on disc but not available from the start, pirates are a big reason why.  Because that big, bad corporation you accuse of robbing the poor gamer isn't going to make you new games if they don't make enough money to stay in business.  To pay their programmers and developers, to bear the other costs of creation, et cetera.  That's simply how an economy works.

 

 

Yes, what do you know? People feel a lot less sorry for multi-billion dollar companies than they do for regular people just trying to make a living. Different circumstances, different outcomes.

 

And those "big, bad corporations" are indeed getting greedier and greedier. If you notice, you only see these scummy business practices on the guaranteed money-makers, never on small indies that aren't even sure that they'll make their money back. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that this is not about need, it's about greed.

 

Jim Sterling has a series of videos that explain this better than I ever could:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Honor_Hand said:

One thing is for certain, though. Practices such as season passes, DLCs, microtransactions and all forms of monetization that have appeared on recently released games do generate negative feedback from consumers, like me, who feel we are being overcharged on a piece of software.

I can condone a DLC if it feels like it's an expansion & not just content that was yanked out of the game before production solely with the intent of adding it later for an extra fee.  Witcher 3 does the expansion idea right.  Yellow card on Namco for Tekken 7, though... you will pay extra for Anna, Lei, & Julia even though they were in previous Tekken titles.  Well, this sure leaves me feeling that Namco planned ahead of time to keep them out of the original arcade T7 with intent to release them as paid DLC on the console. 

 

Capcom is guilty with SFV as well.  Want Sakura, Blanka, Cody, & Sagat?  You have to get in your pocket once again.  It shouldn't be like that.  Characters from earlier games in the series should be patched into the base game.  If I have to pay for characters I'd prefer for them to be new ones. 

 

EA should do their Madden & other sports titles as a "buy the game once then pay for roster updates each year" deal while making core improvements to the engine over time.  Nope... you have to pay $60+ for it each year.  Lather, rinse, repeat.  Lame.

 

If extra item MTX are used, they shouldn't make you feel that you need to buy them to finish the game.  I don't buy them because it feels like cheating.

Edited by gameoverDude189
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I wrote a 5000-word essay arguing not that piracy is legal but rather why I think it's not that big a deal. I think the conversation would go a long way forward if you (and @MMX20) explained why you think it's bad, and not simply stating "well, it's illegal, so clearly it's bad".

 

Well which is fully sustainable if everyone does it? If everyone can pirate products and those products continue to be made then that's as close to "good" as we can morally get.

 

Quote

Capcom is guilty with SFV as well.  Want Sakura, Blanka, Cody, & Sagat?  You have to get in your pocket once again.

 

It was always like that but instead of a character pass or fight money you'd have to buy the newest re-release of Street Fighter IIX Hyper Edition Championship. The reducing the dozens of versions people used to complain about was what SFV was supposed to do, and it actually did.


 

Quote

 

I can condone a DLC if it feels like it's an expansion & not just content that was yanked out of the game before production solely with the intent of adding it later for an extra fee.  Witcher 3 does the expansion idea right. 


 

 

 

What I find funny is the amount of stuff they took out of the game only to drip feed it as pos-launch "free" content. The idea of the DLC being "free" really help to earn them favor but let's be real, the stuff was just missions taken out of the base game and a couple skins for characters/gwent.

Edited by TJ_Solo
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Instead of arguing any of your points, I will share a personal story.  In 2002, I was a film student at San Diego State University and I decided that I wanted to make my first feature length documentary film.  It took me an entire year to convince the US Marine Corps to allow me into their closed world of boot camp.  I spent over three months of filming for 15-18 hours everyday.  It then took an additional year and a half to edit the picture and sound.  Once this process was completed, I then understood that the hardest part of making a film is not the production phase.  It was the unimaginable task of getting the world to know that the work exists.  Fast forward a year later, and I got my break when a legendary Hollywood director invited my film to premiere at his film festival.  And five years after first starting the project, I sold my first DVD copy.  I then filed for a copyright as the film started to sell at an incredible rate.  At one point I was shipping 50,000 copies per year.  Needless to write, I was overjoyed because I believed that this success would allow me to reinvest the money into producing and directing more film projects.  But all of this quickly disappeared once people started uploading the film to the internet.  Because of this, everyone could watch it for free and it completely halted my goal of creating more films.  All of my focus and all of my energy was on trying to fight for my creative integrity.  Overnight, I lost all of my income and I honestly have yet to recover both creatively and emotionally.     And as I write this today, I am still unsure if I will ever find it in me to continue the work that once had been my passion.  I find it interesting that people that typically complain about copyright law, are also the same people that have never worked for five years on an intellectual property, just to see it stolen.  They believe that by uploading the content, they were doing me some sort of favor.  It is in my humble opinion and experience, copyright laws are necessary to protect the intellectual property of the copyright holder.  It is their right and their right only to decide the fate of that property.  If you spent years of your life developing and creating something with your name on it, would you be okay with people then coming in and doing whatever with your life’s work? To me, it would be no different than building a house with your own blood, sweat and tears, then the day you finally finish, some other guy walks in, lays down a sleeping bag and declares that the house no longer belongs to you and they can do with it whatever they please.  And in case anyone was wondering, the name of my documentary is EARS, OPEN. EYEBALLS, CLICK.  Thank you for reading.

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If someone copies a game that is long out of print for their personal use only, I could not care less.

When the game is a newer release or still in print (such as being on GOG, Steam, Origin or other online game stores), that's different.  Then buy it.

 

Does the 2nd hand market help Nintendo? No. They don't see a dime from that.  Like I said, Nintendo should start selling PC versions of their older titles.  Let them write their own emulators though... given their recent actions, it would be quite hypocritical of them to use one of the existing emulators.

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6 hours ago, TJ_Solo said:

Well which is fully sustainable if everyone does it? If everyone can pirate products and those products continue to be made then that's as close to "good" as we can morally get.

 

I'm not arguing hypothetical scenarios here. The fact is that piracy has been around for at least 40 years and yet all media industries are (financially) healthier than ever. Meaning that it's not the huge problem big corporations make it out to be, since they're still clearly making money.

 

 

5 hours ago, jpmelville said:

(snip)

 

Quite an interesting experience you shared there. While I am perfectly aware of what I defended, as Jim Sterling said on the fourth video in the original post (When piracy becomes theft), not all piracy is the same. It's different to pirate something from a huge company that is going to make gangbusters regardless of piracy than it is to do the same to indie developers and filmmakers trying to break into the industry. It's in here that ethics (and a little bit of common sense) has to come into the picture. These are people whose living isn't guaranteed. In these cases, if you like the movie/game... then just buy it.

 

As I said, I'm not trying to advocate for the legality of piracy. I think that if you have the money to do so, then you should support your favorite creators. My point with the original post is that there are plenty of cases where piracy isn't the demon big corporations make it out to be. Your case as a small indie movie maker, however, isn't one of them.

 

I really recommend you watch the videos on the original post, especially the one that I just mentioned here, and also read the Kotaku article that I linked to. It helps bring a little more light into the points I'm trying to make.

Edited by jrdemr
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8 hours ago, gameoverDude189 said:

If someone copies a game that is long out of print for their personal use only, I could not care less.

When the game is a newer release or still in print (such as being on GOG, Steam, Origin or other online game stores), that's different.  Then buy it.

 

Does the 2nd hand market help Nintendo? No. They don't see a dime from that.  Like I said, Nintendo should start selling PC versions of their older titles.  Let them write their own emulators though... given their recent actions, it would be quite hypocritical of them to use one of the existing emulators.

In regards to your previous comment about Nintendo being like Sega, quiting the console business and making games for PS, Xbox and PC: There's no way in hell they will quit the console business. Their Nintendo Switch is such a smash hit. While the emulator debate varies, it was quite hypocritical of you to say that Nintendo should quit the console business. If you say stuff like that, some Nintendo fans (Myself included) won't be happy to hear you say stuff like that.

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9 hours ago, MMX20 said:

While the emulator debate varies, it was quite hypocritical of you to say that Nintendo should quit the console business. If you say stuff like that, some Nintendo fans (Myself included) won't be happy to hear you say stuff like that.

OK, maybe it was a little harsh to say they should quit consoles. 

But anyway, as for what I said about them publishing PC versions of older titles, I will stand by that.  They really should do that.  It won't harm them to make PC versions of their old games alongside the Switch ports.  They would get some sales.  Not everyone who was into 8/16/64 bit Nintendo has the Switch.  Look at Microsoft, who has allowed non-retro Xbox One titles Quantum Break, Gears of War 4, & Ryse onto PC after an exclusivity period.

 

With all due respect, Nintendo's Switch could use more power for it's $300 price.  Don't get me wrong, it's not like I expect PS4 Pro or Xbox One X level hardware in it, but they should make it at least on par with a vanilla PS4 for that money.

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15 hours ago, jrdemr said:

It's different to pirate something from a huge company that is going to make gangbusters regardless of piracy than it is to do the same to indie developers and filmmakers trying to break into the industry. 

What a load of horse shit.  Dont try to justify the theft by saying they're rich and can afford it.  And if a large company has to downsize because they didnt meet sales expectations on part due to piracy, then what? Tell the employees it's ok because the huge company can afford it?

 

The only time piracy is justified is for personal use on out of production material.  If you pirate because you're too cheap or cant afford it, then go earn some money like the rest of us and buy it, otherwise you shouldn't have it

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I'm not arguing hypothetical scenarios here. The fact is that piracy has been around for at least 40 years and yet all media industries are (financially) healthier than ever. Meaning that it's not the huge problem big corporations make it out to be, since they're still clearly making money.

 

You were arguing morality and how one could conclude what is "good" and what is "bad". The "good", in most theories, believe that  "good" can be repeated infinitely by everyone. However "bad" actions are if repeated by everyone is not infinite. That theory doesn't mean good and bad don't both exist at the same time. So I am not saying piracy doesn't exist or hasn't been around. Nor have I attempted to quantify how much of drain it is on the industry for individual companies. It not being a huge problem isn't an argument.  

 

 

 

 

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