Should Shovelware Be Worth Zero Points?

[Sikutai]

1 hour ago, ARIXANDRE said:

 

 

Leaderboards are really only a thing in non-Sony sites. 

 

Best not to think too much about it. 

 

Yes, PSN does not have a leaderboard. I often get credit for the number of games I played and the number of platinums I have and I worked hard for directly on PSN when playing multiplayer games. That motivates me to keep working on my platinums.

Edited October 22, 2022 by Sikutai

[Sikutai]

28 minutes ago, Thrillhelm said:

Insults are not an opinion, but nice try framing it as echo chambering when I remember times where forum rules were actually enforced, now people jump straight to personal level.

 

Many here with over 10000 likes are pure schoolyard bullies who like to bully weaker people. You have to be hardened by then. This is also the main reason why this site is visited and used by fewer and fewer people.

[You]

I voted already in the poll, but now there are two new other options I can't vote on. Since I voted before they existed... So I guess I can't cancel my original vote?

Edited October 22, 2022 by enaysoft

[DrBloodmoney]

12 hours ago, DeepEyes7 said:

Yes, that is an option, but will punish people that played ezpz even more... I see Dr. already objecting about this because if you play ezpz games just for "fun" this will damage your average rarity, but if they just doesnt count then no harm done...

 

You're right that I would voice my objection (for what it would be worth), but the reason isn't quite as cut and dried as you state.

 

I don't think "Average Rarity" is a useful measurement, because "working it" requires players to do exactly the same behaviour that makes me dislike the Trophy-Mill games - it requires players to "play the statistics, and not the games"

 

Players who do that are are doing exactly the same thing as the "Power Levellers" do with their Asset-Swap games - they are just doing from the other end of the see-saw.

 

Any profile with loads of games, will naturally gravitate closer and closer to a 50% Average rarity - unless the player is specifically chasing games to play to "work" that value. That's just basic statistical theory.  To avoid that, players would have to choose what to play based on rarity, rather than appeal.

 

To me, encouraging that is no different to encouraging the Trophy-Mill games - it's encouraging people to pick what they play based on outside factors, and "punishes" (or at least, numerically disadvantages) players who just play what games they like the look of, rarity-be-damned. 

 

 

To me, any LB where two players could be exactly equal - with exactly the same games done -, then one plays, for example, The Artful Escape, and the other plays NOTHING - and the first player would move down, is inherently ridiculous.

[GUDGER666]

They shouldn't be worth 0, imo its just not fair. I just see it as people can't keep up and they want to sabotage it for others. A perfect example is people reporting ikemenzi for an OS issue, imo it is bang out order the way that guy has been treated on this site. And I'm sounding like a damn Owl at this point with complaining about cheaters, but its just bs to be removing people like that but doing naff all about clear cheaters. 

 

The very simple way to fix this trophy spam is to have a leaderboard that doesn't have these games, or have the option to hide these games like the new feature for new games. And also fix the highly requested rarity leaderboard. 

 

As much as these games have ruined trophies you can't punish people for legitimately earning trophies, only Sony can fix this. 

[TheBusToYoker]

3 hours ago, enaysoft said:

I voted already in the poll, but now there are two new other options I can't vote on. Since I voted before they existed... So I guess I can't cancel my original vote?

 

It's a mess. I've tried updating it again. The good news is I've heard a rarity leaderboard may be in the works, and I think conversation is now best being turned to that. Particularly if anyone has anything to offer on the algorithm for it.

Edited October 22, 2022 by AMadScotsGuy

[DavySuicide]

On 21.10.2022 at 2:24 PM, Stanislav669 said:

Good or bad its sony playstation system trophies/points. Its unprofessional to change something in psnprofiles, guys you cant change what is the real to waht suits better for you. so i can grab 10 leafs and i started to think are 10 dollars? are you kidding me?

 

this is so wrong!! Actually PSNP CAN decide whether something counts or not! 
 

this side is not tied to any „rules“ Sony set ,it’s not an official partner or whatever. By allowing these „games“ to happen, by allowing 1 million stacks by allowing to release garbage, it‘s time for a change. 
 

and this shovelware“ button is the best thing that happened on this page im years. 

Also IF something likes this would happen, it doesn’t mean you can’t play these games, 

Edited October 22, 2022 by DavySuicide

[BestUsername----]

Would a rarity leaderboard account for games with DLC or no platinums?
 

Many games have an above 20% rarity but have a sub 1% completion rate or a no-plat game can have sub 5% compeltion. 

Granted the percentages are small because no it many play/buys DLC and no-plat games, but it would be cool if the leaderboard takes into account people who do. 
 

This may steer towards a competition rate leader board though so I’m not so sure if it’ll fix the issue with shovelware crap. 

Edited October 22, 2022 by BestUsername----

[theSpirae]

This isn't going to be a popular opinion but how does this differ from getting 100% automatically popped if you did 100% on the PS4 version of the game and get all PS5 trophies instantly with no work? Personally, I don't really care about leaderboards but I'd considered it cheating in the same sense as these shovelware trophies.

[Wuthg21]

4 minutes ago, theSpirae said:

This isn't going to be a popular opinion but how does this differ from getting 100% automatically popped if you did 100% on the PS4 version of the game and get all PS5 trophies instantly with no work? Personally, I don't really care about leaderboards but I'd considered it cheating in the same sense as these shovelware trophies.

Atleast for an autopop you have to put in the work the first time, i'm autopopping GTA5 on the ps5 when i 100% complete it on ps4, why? Because i don't want to put hunderds of hours in it again. 

 

But this brings another problem, people playing the weakest version of new games (ps4) just so they can autopop the new version.

 

Shovelware is just a pure cash grab for the people stupid enough to buy them, just for some virtual pixels / or a high place on the leaderboard, i'm all in for them to not count

Edited October 22, 2022 by Colin

[GUDGER666]

6 minutes ago, theSpirae said:

This isn't going to be a popular opinion but how does this differ from getting 100% automatically popped if you did 100% on the PS4 version of the game and get all PS5 trophies instantly with no work? Personally, I don't really care about leaderboards but I'd considered it cheating in the same sense as these shovelware trophies.

I don't think it should count but I think it would be too much trouble trying to eliminate it. 

[sepheroithisgod]

5 minutes ago, theSpirae said:

This isn't going to be a popular opinion but how does this differ from getting 100% automatically popped if you did 100% on the PS4 version of the game and get all PS5 trophies instantly with no work? Personally, I don't really care about leaderboards but I'd considered it cheating in the same sense as these shovelware trophies.

Simply put, it's an intended feature that Sony allows and the devs have to go out of their way to implement it (as there are games that do not offer it).

 

Even if you take something like Spider-Man for instance, if you platted it the first time, you probably spent 25-30 hrs. If you auto-pop it, you still spent that time at one point. Personally not a big fan of auto-popping on single-player games, but it definitely makes sense as a feature. As the intended use is to upgrade your game from PS4 to PS5 the moment you get a PS5 and not lose any progress.

Shovelware on the other hand requires no effort at any point in obtaining the trophies. It's just paying for a 30-second plat. In the time it takes you to plat Spider-Man from scratch, you could get over 200 platinums.

[iriihutoR84]

There should be leaderboards where you can be competitive without buying non-games. That simply isn't possible on the current leaderboard with probably 50 or more 3-minute-or-less platinums releasing every week.

 

I think it's fine that PSNP has a "pure" leaderboard where everything is counted equally but I think it would be beneficial for the community to allow people who want to compete by playing normal video games to have leaderboards catering to them. The current leaderboard strictly favors playing the easiest and shortest games available. 

 

I've said it before but my ideal scenario is:

- Keep the current leaderboard for those who want to hoard trophies.

- Introduce an "Adjusted" leaderboard for people who just want to play normal games. I think this is a large amount of gamers who just want to be competitive without buying 16 stacks of jumping food every week and without chasing ultra rares. The way to accomplish this would be for example by counting 95% trophies as close to zero, 90% as a tiny bit, 85% as a little, 80% as a little more etc. staggering all the way down to 50% (or maybe 0%). This leaderboard doesn't need to give big rewards for ultra rares but it needs to practically remove the spam games.

- Introduce a third leaderboard for the "hardcore" crowd who enjoy chasing rare plats and playing challenging games by strongly favoring rare and ultra rare trophies in the calculations. 

 

Maybe not according to my numbers exactly but I think the principle should be to not just allow the trophy hoarders and ultra rare chasers to have their leaderboards but also normal people who just want to enjoy video games. 

 

All leaderboards would be abused in one way or another but the only leaderboard we have today is absolutely worse with how easy it is to abuse by just spending money. 

Edited October 22, 2022 by iriihutoR84

[TristanBrown17]

Lmao. I tried reading most of this thread and the back and forth just reminds me of that Michael Jackson eating popcorn gif. 

 

Honestly, leaderboards are stupid, but I think there's a bigger implication. What used to be a joke with the "My Name is Mayo" game has now become a predatory, money-driven system where people who think digital achievements mean anything outside of our little space put their money into in hopes that their number climbs higher. I can't recall the last time I looked at my "position", but it does always put a sour taste in my mouth when I want to see what others are playing, and have to filter through hundreds of shovelware stacks to see the "actual games". 

 

To be fair to people like @Thrillhelm, they have put money into their shovelware, and I can see where it sucks if you care about leaderboards that you lose points. On the other hand, the thing I personally enjoy about trophy hunting is the challenge of playing a game and trying to actually complete it as the developers intended. I struggle to see that people who play lots of shovelware would continue to buy it if it weren't worth points on a made up leaderboard. 

 

My thought is that you make a certain percentage where it doesn't become a "common" trophy, but rather denoted as either "shovelware" rarity or some other denotation. Set it high, like 95% or higher gets it, so that we mostly avoid the introductory trophy from what I would consider an actual game. Of note, stuff like "Sucker Punched" from Sly Cooper 1 may get noted as a "shovelware" trophy, but then we are looking at an actual game for the remainder. 

 

End of the day, it's hilarious that we're arguing about a hobby we all share. A rarity leaderboard where 0 points are given for anything above a majority-agreed percentage would be a cool edition for those interested in actually challenging themselves.

[Floorkiller74]

16 hours ago, ShadeSplit said:

 

Everyone keeps saying this, but what does it actually mean? I use True Trophies, and I see the administration team doing much more for the site than anything here. It actually has features such as a dark mode, or different leaderboard functions. So I've seen nothing to suggest the administration on this site "cares" anymore for it than on True Trophies. If I'm missing something, I would be interested in hearing what it is.

 

Anyway, "shovelware" is a poor term for the games in question here. It's true, the vast majority, if not all of them, are shovelware. However, there's nothing stopping a shovelware game from having difficult to earn trophies. Some people think the Attacking Zegeta games are interesting because of people not being able to earn trophies, but that doesn't exclude them from being shovelware. Then you have some "Rata" published games that certainly aren't shovelware, but were ruined by them trying to take advantage of trophy hunters. So there should be a more appropriate term.

 

They have never given the site any opportunity to grow, or shown any care to see it grow. I used to submit trophy flags there all the time, but it would often take them 4-6 weeks to get around to looking at them. When I would ask what is taking so long I was always made to feel like I'm inconveniencing them. I felt like my contributions were a burden, and so I quit contributing. Considering how dead that site is I would think they would appreciate any help they can get. TT has the potential to blow this site out of the water but I feel as they really don't care. TA gets all the love. 

[TheBusToYoker]

3 minutes ago, Floorkiller74 said:

 

They have never given the site any opportunity to grow, or shown any care to see it grow. I used to submit trophy flags there all the time, but it would often take them 4-6 weeks to get around to looking at them. When I would ask what is taking so long I was always made to feel like I'm inconveniencing them. I felt like my contributions were a burden, and so I quit contributing. Considering how dead that site is I would think they would appreciate any help they can get. TT has the potential to blow this site out of the water but I feel as they really don't care. TA gets all the love. 

 

True Achievements imo has the best guides and information for 3rd party titles.

[Floorkiller74]

1 minute ago, AMadScotsGuy said:

 

True Achievements imo has the best guides and information for 3rd party titles.

 

Absolutely. I wish TT would get half the love TA gets. 

[GUDGER666]

8 minutes ago, AMadScotsGuy said:

 

True Achievements imo has the best guides and information for 3rd party titles.

Yep, its what i use 90% of the time. By far the best imo. 

[TrophyChief]

This thread sucks ass. Sometimes I pray to God to take away my ability to read.

Edited October 22, 2022 by TrophyChief

[TheBusToYoker]

4 minutes ago, TrophyChief said:

This thread sucks ass. Sometimes I pray to God to take away my ability to read.

 

Thank you for improving it with your highly valuable contribution.

[dcdfan]

I‘m already happy when I noticed that you can finally hide shovelware in the list of new games. Didn’t see it at first and wondered if that crap ceased to get published. But alas, that did not happen…

[MrShovelware]

spam games make my OCD feel quenched for a time. I really enjoy them. Regardless if this website removes them as counting for leaderboard points I will continue to buy and play them in stacks

[TrophyChief]

18 minutes ago, AMadScotsGuy said:

 

Thank you for improving it with your highly valuable contribution.

Already have bud. ? It’s  somewhere in this crap thread above. Let’s go back to playing games and having fun. 

[Thrillhelm]

As long as they don't lose points themselves, people seem to be happy to have others taken away their points.

1 hour ago, TristanBrown17 said:

To be fair to people like @Thrillhelm, they have put money into their shovelware, and I can see where it sucks if you care about leaderboards that you lose points. On the other hand, the thing I personally enjoy about trophy hunting is the challenge of playing a game and trying to actually complete it as the developers intended. I struggle to see that people who play lots of shovelware would continue to buy it if it weren't worth points on a made up leaderboard. 

 

My thought is that you make a certain percentage where it doesn't become a "common" trophy, but rather denoted as either "shovelware" rarity or some other denotation. Set it high, like 95% or higher gets it, so that we mostly avoid the introductory trophy from what I would consider an actual game. Of note, stuff like "Sucker Punched" from Sly Cooper 1 may get noted as a "shovelware" trophy, but then we are looking at an actual game for the remainder. 

 

End of the day, it's hilarious that we're arguing about a hobby we all share. A rarity leaderboard where 0 points are given for anything above a majority-agreed percentage would be a cool edition for those interested in actually challenging themselves.

 

The lengths people go to justify the unfairness. Retroactively taking points away seems a good idea to some and will ruin the site on long terms. No right to blame the top ranks on the leaderboard, claiming they do this for personal gain, if its okay to give others a disadvantage that much late after shovelgames have been introduced in that quantity.

[StraightVege]

17 hours ago, ZZ383 said:

I think we should get rid of the leaderboards.  Keep the guides, keep the forums, they have value to me. The leaderboards, I see my rank and I go, "it went up/it went down. whatever."  I'm not here to compare how many trophies I have earned.

 

It feels like I could have wrote this myself, almost verbatim. For the most part, you've nicely captured my thoughts on the whole subject: I scarcely ever look at leaderboards, or even view other people's profiles/trophies, so it's no skin off my nose if they were to be changed or removed altogether. Considering this, I suppose it's most appropriate for me to abstain from voting on the poll. ?‍♂️