What are the site standards for tagging games as Shovelware?

[iriihutoR84]

I've seen seemingly normal games being tagged as Shovelware a few times now and I'm curious to why this is happening. I figured the tag was strictly to combat the likes of ThiGames and Klovako but it seems to "sometimes" also be used for certain games from the likes of Ratalaika and EAS and I'm curious if this is intended and what are the standards for calling a game shovelware.

 

I'm also not entirely sure it is in the community's interest to tag Ratalaika and EAS releases with Shovelware and think there is a discussion to be had about that too.

 

I've personally seen the tag misused IMO for the games Hatup and Burrow of the Fallen Bear but I don't really click through new releases here so I'm sure there are many more cases.

 

So, is the tag intended for Ratalaika releases or is some staff member fucking up here? If everything is working as intended, what are the standards for qualifying as "Shovelware"?

[MonaSaxPayne]

This was bound to happen…

[CelestialRequiem]

9 minutes ago, MonaSaxPayne said:

This was bound to happen…

Better we have this problem than for them to not be curated.

[Gattusso02]

You could probably start with an appeal on shovelware rules or games wrongly tagged as shovelware versus assuming a "staff member is f*cking up" with the tags. We don't know how heavy their workload is behind the scenes.

[BlindMango]

Yeah Hatup & Burrow of the Fallen Bear initially were tagged as shovelware but turned out to be real games and we reversed them. Every now and then some games will be mislabeled initially as shovelware, but be sure to let us know in the Update a Trophy List thread if you think we made an oops!

 

Basically only asset flips and essentially non-games you buy for the trophies should be marked as shovelware, though of course that definition could change in the future if devs try to skirt around the rules 

[ryuji_sakujo]

That definition needs further elaboration.

 

Are the Persona games or Yakuza shovelware due to "asset flips"?

https://psnprofiles.com/series/70-persona

https://psnprofiles.com/series/127-yakuza

 

How can anyone judge if someone "buys games for the trophies", there are games that have multiple stacks and are easy to complete but nevertheless contain content which owners are free to explore beyond trophy completion.

https://psnprofiles.com/series/1065-metagal

https://psnprofiles.com/search/games?q=daggerhood

 

I feel like there is an inherent and implied bias against shovelware on this website, not only by self-asserting purist "hardcore gamers" but also by the staff..

Probably no point in reasoning cause most of your minds are already made up, but isn't it easier to just let people enjoy what they wanna enjoy, spend their money and time on what they want to spend it on. Not everyone is thrilled to jump into the latest God of War game or whatever. ?

 

But more importantly, isn't a website like PSNProfiles supposed to catalog ALL games that support trophies in a neutral way.. more specifically my question is: what is the point of marking games as shovelware? Does it actually fill a function? ?
It seems to me like just another meaningless initiative that will just increase administrative burden and produce false positives anyway... what is the point?
To pacify purist gamers? To let visitors hide certain games that have been deemed "shovelware"?
In that case can we also have a toggle for hiding "war shooters", or sports games?

[Martain2]

27 minutes ago, ryuji_sakujo said:

That definition needs further elaboration.

 

Are the Persona games or Yakuza shovelware due to "asset flips"?

https://psnprofiles.com/series/70-persona

https://psnprofiles.com/series/127-yakuza

 

How can anyone judge if someone "buys games for the trophies", there are games that have multiple stacks and are easy to complete but nevertheless contain content which owners are free to explore beyond trophy completion.

https://psnprofiles.com/series/1065-metagal

https://psnprofiles.com/search/games?q=daggerhood

 

I feel like there is an inherent and implied bias against shovelware on this website, not only by self-asserting purist "hardcore gamers" but also by the staff..

Probably no point in reasoning cause most of your minds are already made up, but isn't it easier to just let people enjoy what they wanna enjoy, spend their money and time on what they want to spend it on. Not everyone is thrilled to jump into the latest God of War game or whatever. 

 

But more importantly, isn't a website like PSNProfiles supposed to catalog ALL games that support trophies in a neutral way.. more specifically my question is: what is the point of marking games as shovelware? Does it actually fill a function? 
It seems to me like just another meaningless initiative that will just increase administrative burden and produce false positives anyway... what is the point?
To pacify purist gamers? To let visitors hide certain games that have been deemed "shovelware"?
In that case can we also have a toggle for hiding "war shooters", or sports games?

 

1. The Persona games are NOT classed as shovelware but have multiple list due to separate trophy lists being made available for the same game in different regions.

2. The reason for the shovelware tag was to stop the entire front page being full of these games everyday and pushing the new releases with some actual gameplay involved being forced off.

3. All the games are still viewable in the recent releases section just by using the toggle.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Martain2

[Xylobe]

10 minutes ago, ryuji_sakujo said:

But more importantly, isn't a website like PSNProfiles supposed to catalog ALL games that support trophies in a neutral way.. more specifically my question is: what is the point of marking games as shovelware? Does it actually fill a function? 
It seems to me like just another meaningless initiative that will just increase administrative burden and produce false positives anyway... what is the point?
To pacify purist gamers? To let visitors hide certain games that have been deemed "shovelware"?
In that case can we also have a toggle for hiding "war shooters", or sports games?

 

I won't speak for the Game Information Team regarding the rest of this, but as someone who spends probably too much time on this site, the shovelware tag serves more or less the same function as the spam filter in your email. Toggles for other genres and themes aren't necessary, as you can already sort for them specifically, and more importantly there aren't so many of them that they drown out everything else.

 

Look at the new trophy lists panel on the site's home page. Six months ago, it was rare to see a single game listed that wasn't The Jumping Noun, Stroke the Noun, or The Noun Letter, and that had a genuine negative impact on the usability of the site. Before the shovelware floodgates were opened, that section would commonly bring new games to my attention; some of my favorites like Phoenotopia Awakening are games I'd never heard of (and likely never would have heard of) if they weren't highlighted there. Since the filter was implemented, that usability has returned, and I've been turned onto great and interesting games like Sable or A Space for the Unbound because of it.

 

To put it in perspective: the trophy system made its debut in 2008. More than one quarter of all trophy lists released in 2022.

[The Alchemist]

21 minutes ago, ryuji_sakujo said:

more specifically my question is: what is the point of marking games as shovelware? Does it actually fill a function? 

 

Marking games as shovelware exists simply to prevent the new trophy lists section on the front page (and since then, the new DLC section too, because scummy shovelware devs were trying to circumvent this shortly after it was introduced) from being constantly clogged to the brim with trash, zero effort, pay-for-trophies "games". Prior to games being marked as shovelware, the front page was effectively useless for many people, myself included, because we used the front page to discover new games or to just check out the latest trophy lists of actual, legitimate games, which were often getting buried under hundreds upon hundreds of shovelware titles on a daily basis.

 

A few people might not be happy about this, but it was a much needed change for the site and I dare say the overwhelming majority here are happy about it, even if it isn't a totally perfect solution. The front page is useable once more, actual games don't get buried anymore, so any inconvenience to a select few is more than worth it as far as I'm concerned. 

[MonaSaxPayne]

14 minutes ago, Xylobe said:

To put it in perspective: the trophy system made its debut in 2008. More than one quarter of all trophy lists released in 2022.

 

oh wow... is this accurate or hyperbolic?

Edited January 18, 2023 by MonaSaxPayne

[PraiseTheFluppi]

41 minutes ago, ryuji_sakujo said:

But more importantly, isn't a website like PSNProfiles supposed to catalog ALL games that support trophies in a neutral way.. more specifically my question is: what is the point of marking games as shovelware? Does it actually fill a function? 
It seems to me like just another meaningless initiative that will just increase administrative burden and produce false positives anyway... what is the point?
To pacify purist gamers? To let visitors hide certain games that have been deemed "shovelware"?

This website went from daily complaints about the trashy looking frontpage to pretty much zero complaints after the implementation of the shovelware filter.

I'd say it serves its purpose.

[sepheroithisgod]

15 minutes ago, Xylobe said:

 

I won't speak for the Game Information Team regarding the rest of this, but as someone who spends probably too much time on this site, the shovelware tag serves more or less the same function as the spam filter in your email. Toggles for other genres and themes aren't necessary, as you can already sort for them specifically, and more importantly there aren't so many of them that they drown out everything else.

 

Look at the new trophy lists panel on the site's home page. Six months ago, it was rare to see a single game listed that wasn't The Jumping Noun, Stroke the Noun, or The Noun Letter, and that had a genuine negative impact on the usability of the site. Before the shovelware floodgates were opened, that section would commonly bring new games to my attention; some of my favorites like Phoenotopia Awakening are games I'd never heard of (and likely never would have heard of) if they weren't highlighted there. Since the filter was implemented, that usability has returned, and I've been turned onto great and interesting games like Sable or A Space for the Unbound because of it.

 

To put it in perspective: the trophy system made its debut in 2008. More than one quarter of all trophy lists released in 2022.

This 100%.

Shovelware titles were clogging up the new trophy list section almost exclusively to the point that the section was better off being removed if you didn't have PSNP+ installed. Shovelware really is the equivalent of spam and needs to be handled accordingly. Now if the leaderboards would reflect this change as well...

[ryuji_sakujo]

7 minutes ago, Martain2 said:

2. The reason for the shovelware tag was to stop the entire front page being full of these games everyday and pushing the new releases with some actual gameplay involved being forced off.

Define "actual gameplay"..

So games like Punch Line and Steins;Gate are shovelware because they're visual novels and you just need to press X to progress? ?

 

8 minutes ago, Xylobe said:

Look at the new trophy lists panel on the site's home page. ...

Never used that section to explore, but it's a fair point I suppose.

I'm not sure why that feed is exposed on the front page, but perhaps it can remain unfiltered as default and have a toggle button attached to it for those that prefer your use case.

It might even be better to add an "explore" section (eg. https://psnprofiles.com/explore) where games are listed and displayed based on recently published, genres or whatever else to help visitors find new stuff.. if that's what people want and if it's enough of an incentive to implement it.. PS Store has something similar called "collections", you should check it out.
I still think "new trophy lists" should stay true to its name and display ALL new trophy lists, not just "some".

 

13 minutes ago, Xylobe said:

To put it in perspective: the trophy system made its debut in 2008. More than one quarter of all trophy lists released in 2022.

In 1900 there were barely 2 billion people on this planet, today there are 7.88 billion people.
Things change, so I'm not sure if I get your point. Change is good, I think it's time people here grow up and deal with it.
Not every restaurant is gonna be a 5-star Michelin restaurant, most joints will be fast food joints because people are pigs and like to eat crappy fast food.
And while many enjoy AAA polished games, an equal amount might enjoy crappy indies and shovelware, otherwise those publishers and devs would not be around to serve us that content.

Deal with it.

[FishOfPain]

6 minutes ago, MonaSaxPayne said:

 

oh wow... is this accurate or hyperbolic?

 

Looking at the complete stats; toggling the shovelware filter on and off makes the games page jump from 345 pages to 399.

That's a sixth of all games released since 2008, 16%. Considering they only appeared a year or so ago, I'd say they probably accounted for MORE than a quarter of the lists in 2022.

[ryuji_sakujo]

6 minutes ago, PraiseTheFluppi said:

This website went from daily complaints about the trashy looking frontpage to pretty much zero complaints after the implementation of the shovelware filter.

I'd say it serves its purpose.

Point taken, I suppose.
Amazing how many people actually use the front page other than as a landing page. 
Fair enough, although I'd like to point out there are probably more effective ways to explore new games other than refreshing a tiny box that fits 10 items.

To each their own I suppose, I'm glad some of you have use out of the front page.

 

EDIT:
My question remains to management, what is the exact definition of shovelware.. there's too many games that are in a grey zone.
And it seems some visitors here will miss out on finding out about these games if they are by mistake hidden by the "spam filter".

Edited January 18, 2023 by ryuji_sakujo

[KenjiCBZ]

Common/good sense. ?

[DaivRules]

8 minutes ago, ryuji_sakujo said:

Deal with it.

 

Sly did. You just don't happen to like his solution.

 

[Dreggit]

1 hour ago, ryuji_sakujo said:

 

It seems to me like just another meaningless initiative that will just increase administrative burden and produce false positives anyway... what is the point?

I think you are jumping to the (poor) conclusion that the filter is both useless and that the staff who maintain it are incompetent. I also think making an argument that Persona is shovelware is quite the leap of logic and poorly argued. The number of times something is falsely flagged is exceptionally rare and is usually quickly corrected. 

 

Nevertheless, what Mango has said remains true, and roughly 13.53% of all games (most released in 2022) are filtered out as of today.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Dreggit

[Xylobe]

20 minutes ago, MonaSaxPayne said:

 

oh wow... is this accurate or hyperbolic?

 

Go to the game list and show shovelware. 2022's lists begin on page 112, sometime between list 15055 (Football Cup 2022) and 15072 (Deep Rock Galactic). The last 2022 list I believe is the EU list for Bunny Park, which is 20415. The current latest is 20608. Not hyperbole in the slightest.

[DaivRules]

To give more context of how Sly feels about labeling games Shovelware, you can see his own post about it here:
 

 

[MD_91]

1 hour ago, ryuji_sakujo said:

And while many enjoy AAA polished games, an equal amount might enjoy crappy indies and shovelware, otherwise those publishers and devs would not be around to serve us that content.

Deal with it.

 

I've seen several people high in the leaderboards say they don't like playing shovelware type games but feel forced to in order to keep up with everyone else, that's probably a big part of what keeps some of these devs going rather than people actually enjoying the games they make

 

I would define shovelware as the jumping, turbo, quiz, stroke type of games

[ObsiEez]

Just now, MD_91 said:

I would define shovelware as the jumping, turbo, quiz, stroke type of games

Yes, games like this would be what shovelware actually is. A game that literally takes no effort & can be made by a single person in the time it takes to make a frozen pizza. Why people even support games like that is beyond me since the devs don't care at all about the content they're making. They just want to pump out as much garbage as humanly possible to maximize how much money they make

[Martain2]

24 minutes ago, ObsiEez said:

Yes, games like this would be what shovelware actually is. A game that literally takes no effort & can be made by a single person in the time it takes to make a frozen pizza. Why people even support games like that is beyond me since the devs don't care at all about the content they're making. They just want to pump out as much garbage as humanly possible to maximize how much money they make

To inflate their trophy/platinum count.

[Desavenencia]

32 minutes ago, ObsiEez said:

Yes, games like this would be what shovelware actually is. A game that literally takes no effort & can be made by a single person in the time it takes to make a frozen pizza. Why people even support games like that is beyond me since the devs don't care at all about the content they're making. They just want to pump out as much garbage as humanly possible to maximize how much money they make

 

7 minutes ago, Martain2 said:

To inflate their trophy/platinum count.

 

I totally agree here. If shovelware-like "games" have been on the rise to the point of presenting a problem, it's mainly because some people pay for it... I guess in order to win trophies easily and quickly.

 

In my humble opinion, shovelware serves to bring the trophy hunting community into disrepute and makes the trophy value system go awry.

[amurnin100]

Isant this old news now that Sony are restricting shovelware or has the discussion moved to the new standard of what “shovelware” is?

Edited January 18, 2023 by amurnin100