DLC trophies' rarity is now based on who owns the DLC

[Ragowit]

There seems to be two different views on what "rarity" is.

 

1. One view is that if 50 out of 50 have earned a DLC trophy so is it truly common. Even though it could have 20,000 more potential players since the main game have 20,050 players.

2. The second view is that if 50 out of 50 have earned a DLC trophy so is it still rare, because there could still be 20,000 more players who all purchased the DLC but aren't that good and haven't got a single trophy in the DLC.

 

I belong in the #1 section.

 

What I don't understand is that those people that think #2 is the more accurate way in calculating rarity, why do you stop there? Why do you not want to include all potential players for all trophies? At the time of this writing, that is 1,021,293 players. There could be 1,021,293 players who just have forgot to load up the game and synced their trophy list. Being one of those 50 out of 1,021,293 is extraordinary ultra rare.

Edited April 14, 2013 by Ragowit

[MoreTheVictim]

What about games with more than one DLC pack, eg. Red Dead Redemption I think there is 4, so if you get one trophy in the Undead Nightmare pack does it count as if you have bought the other 3 packs when you may not have.

 

No, it counts each pack as a different pack and you have to obtain a trophy in each pack to be qualified as an owner to every DLC pack.

[Aipher]

Not sure if it's related, but my Batman AC DLC trophies turned into some of the easiest ones I ever earned. 0.15% of people earned the trophy for getting the GOAT in Fallout 3? Yeah right.

EDIT: Looks like it fixed itself after I updated my card.

 

I was just going to mention this. Batman AC Robin and Nightwing DLC trophies are mega common now even though they are arguably harder than the original Batman challenge trophies which are still 'Very Rare'. This is an example of how inaccurate this system can get. Just look at the catwoman trophies, the campaign challenge trophies are ultra rare as they should be. But the Robin/Nightwing at 99% common is a joke.

 

https://psnprofiles.com/trophies/1081-Batman-Arkham-City

 

I prefer the original method. ~2000 people who have earned the trophy out of ~181,000 people who have played the game is in no way common, regardless if not everyone owns the DLC.  

 

The new system is like saying Ferrari cars aren't rare because we are only comparing Ferrari rarity among people who only own Italian sports cars. We don't actually compare them to everyone else who has bought a car because that's unfair. Can you see the backward logic used here?

Edited April 14, 2013 by Aipher

[Goodfellow_Robin]

It sure is a pitty to "loose" some of the trophies rated as ultra rare. I personally don't care that much about those ratings, so either way is fine by me.

 

One point is, that there are some inconsistencies consindering what counts as DLC and what doesn't.

For example the Pure Timetrials DLC for Mirror's Edge plus all the DLCs for Dragon Age: Origins. They're still listed as non-DLC trophies.

[Arkthur]

The new system is like saying Ferrari cars aren't rare because we are only comparing Ferrari rarity among people who only own Italian sports cars. We don't actually compare them to everyone else who has bought a car because that's unfair. Can you see the backward logic used here?

I don't like the car analogies but oh well. A Ferrari in this case would be a game, so comparing the rarity of the car among people who owns a car will give you an accurate stat. But lets say I own a Ferrari and decide to paint the tires blue, you own one and decide to do it too, so does half the people who owns one; in this case the blue tires are DLC, if you want to know how rare a Ferrari with blue tires is, you wont compare it to the whole world right? You'll have to base your math on the people who owns a Ferrari giving you a 50%.

 

The only problem I see with the new system, is that there is no way to know if somebody bought a DLC  and never played it, wich of course gives you a wrong stat, but is way more accurate than the first one. Let's be clear this problem is not Sly's fault, the XMB just doesn't have that option.

[Aipher]

I don't like the car analogies but oh well. A Ferrari in this case would be a game, so comparing the rarity of the car among people who owns a car will give you an accurate stat. But lets say I own a Ferrari and decide to paint the tires blue, you own one and decide to do it too, so does half the people who owns one; in this case the blue tires are DLC, if you want to know how rare a Ferrari with blue tires is, you wont compare it to the whole world right? You'll have to base your math on the people who owns a Ferrari giving you a 50%.

 

 

Not quite, let's just stick to the basic quality of Ferraris, that they are rare - any model, any color, any tires (well they are rare where I live). Owning a car is 'the game' and an 'Italian sports car owners' club is 'the dlc trophy pack'. Ferraris wouldn't be rare in that group, owning a Ferrari is common in that group. However, this does not change the fact that a Ferrari is rare in comparison to all the other cars in the city.

 

It's probably not the best example, but I am merely highlighting the fact that certain trophies are rare because of the same fact: a very small number of people have it regardless if the dlc trophy is super easy or super hard. Rare is rare, and to regard only the people who own the pack to determine rarity is misleading.

 

The only problem I see with the new system, is that there is no way to know if somebody bought a DLC  and never played it, wich of course gives you a wrong stat, but is way more accurate than the first one. Let's be clear this problem is not Sly's fault, the XMB just doesn't have that option.

 

The Batman AC example above shows how inaccurate the new system can be. The hardest trophies are near 100% common, because people going for those dlc trophies know what they are getting into in such a way that most people skip it completely even if they have the GOTY disc. 2000 earners out of 181000 players shouldn't be 90+% common.

 

It sure is a pitty to "loose" some of the trophies rated as ultra rare. I personally don't care that much about those ratings, so either way is fine by me.

 

One point is, that there are some inconsistencies consindering what counts as DLC and what doesn't.

For example the Pure Timetrials DLC for Mirror's Edge plus all the DLCs for Dragon Age: Origins. They're still listed as non-DLC trophies.

 

I don't really care about losing ultra rares either, but the way of determining rarity should be done properly and encompass everyone involved. What you have mentioned is another reason why the new system is ultimately redundant. There is no way around it for games without a separate trophy list for dlc.

[tw34kfr34ky]

This a great move i been waiting for this.

however i do see many problems with it,in games like zen pinball 2 for example.

there are 3 to 4 tables in each dlc pack,buying one of them doesnt mean you have them all.

and in worms revolution mars pack you can get 4 out of 6 trophies without owning the dlc

im sure theres loads more situation like this,i hope you can figure out something for them

[Sez_06]

there is no way to know if somebody bought a DLC  and never played it, wich of course gives you a wrong stat

 

Also there is no way to know about all the people who really bought a game and their profiles are not tracked, wich of course gives you a wrong stat.

 

Gran Turismo 5 have 258k owners but 9 million copies sold. Yes, there is a little error with the people who owns the DLC and have 0 trophies, bit it's still better than the old way where 90% of my ultra rare trophies was DLC ones.

 

I loved the changes.

[blxckenigma]

I'm ambivalent regarding about this change. It's a nice addition but at the same time, it isn't accurate. Those who bought the DLC might not earn a trophy  from hence they will not be recorded as owners of the DLC. Peace 

[Gotakibono]

I must say, I'm wholly surprised by the reaction this change has garnered...

[Skippy]

I'm ambivalent regarding about this change. It's a nice addition but at the same time, it isn't accurate. Those who bought the DLC might not earn a trophy  from hence they will not be recorded as owners of the DLC. Peace 

It's highly unlikely that someone played and liked a game so much so that they then went out and paid for the DLC for that game but then decided they didn't want to play it and earn any trophies. I doubt that happens! Sometimes I get  DLC bundled into a game for free but I didn't really enjoy the main game that much so I don't bother with the DLC that has been bundled in because I don't want to waste my time any further with a game I didn't particularly like. Now if I decided to play that DLC and earned just one trophy from that list then i'd consider myself to be an owner. 

[da-Noob123]

On one hand i totally agree on the other hand, my ultra rares went from in the 50's to the teens. Interestingly enough though is that my rarest trophies are still all dlc trophies.

[Goodfellow_Robin]

After all, that statistic stuff shouldn't be taken too seriously.

[effdeegee]

Ragowit said it best; both ways are wrong but, the current way is less wrong.

Well done, Sly.

[TEXASBOI727]

I'm under the impression that alot of people believe "rarity" and "difficulty" are the same thing. In my opinion i believe at times they can go hand and hand, but in others they won't. Take for example MK9's "My Kung Fu is Stronger" trophy. I reckon it's classified as being rare still, but it's a piss easy trophy which just takes an absurd amount of letting your ps3 idle for hours on end. If you're a dumb ass like myself who did it, then you understand what i'm talking about.  It's not "difficult" at all, but it's still rare (i assume). Also to clear things about my perspective with my previous posts, i'm not "upset" or "butthurt" about the change. I just tried to give "meaning" as to why some people like myself may question this change, because we see it as putting forth the extra effort in obtaining DLC trophies, and would like to be rewarded for do so versus others who don't.

 

I also noticed from going through the other members posts that the one's who are in favor of the change, seem to just not want their Top 5 Rarest trophies to be DLC related one's. That's fair and i can see your logic behind that. I guess i just see things differently and "get why" or understand the reason some DLC trophies are considered rare. Like i said before i'm open-minded enough to understand why some DLC's are rare, even though they were easy as hell to get. Before the change i had 800+ Ultra Rares, now i have 500+ so considering by the members in favor of the change i'm still doing okay and the number is more "meaningful" now right? I guess i can reluctantly play along with this "new model" (just like everything else the communities deem appropriate), hell i even got as many if not more than the top trophy teams. (That last sentence was besides the point, i'm just statistics nut case) To be honest i truly only feel maybe less than 100 or so of my Ultra rare trophies deserve to be classified that.  But hey, trophies statistics aren't as accurate as we'd like, but i appreciate trophy websites doing something about them unlike Sony's punk ass.

 

Since, Sony doesn't do anything about trophies in general "we" as an entire community (not just this website) dictate whats acceptable or not. "We" also decide what's cool, okay, fair or not. "We" also determine how things get sorted statistically, which in turn everyone follows suit. Food for thought... what if the community decided instant vita plats was not acceptable when they first surfaced. Would trophy hunters still do them? If "we" decided multi-region plats wasn't okay, would hunters still go for them? Or how about allowing trophy teams? Would they still exist? In conclusion what i'm trying to say is if "we" as a trophy community came together (instead of beefing with each other) "we" could've made everything more fair/streamline/cohesive in the beginning or even mid way point after trophies came out. But i "get it" and i accept the changes even though i'm not in favor of some of them (just like the aforementioned examples), i just hope people accept my views on this highly debatable topic or future one's (It's just how i personally see things, which usually means i'm in the minority). Actually it's kinda cool, everyone's getting their opinions out and the thread still being open with no jerks ruining it. I swear trophy hunters/gamers are some of the most passionate human beings out there, wtf is wrong with us? Lmao.

 

Once again, thank you for allowing me to enter your home guy's and keep up the excellent work as always.  Until next thread... Tex out!!

[Dr_Mayus]

I'm under the impression that alot of people believe "rarity" and "difficulty" are the same thing.

 

Exactly. According to rarity my EA Sports Active 2 plat is more difficult than my 3d Dot Game Heroes plat.

[lporiginalg]

Would be nice to have the official word from Sly if he's planning to do anything about the legacy games like Dante's Inferno or not.

 

Left as it is the number of ultra rares desplayed on someone's profile will no longer be a useful comparison unless you wanna go through and count their legacy dlc trophies.

[JamesLovesTennis]

While both the previous way and the new are both inaccurate, I much prefer the new way. I know it means that the rarity is not correct but neither was it before. Only now I have DOA5 and Wipeout plats at the top of my profile (rightly so) as opposed to LBP2 and Uncharted 3 DLC trophies of which 2 require someone to have a PS3, LBP2, PSVIta and the DLC. So yeah...at least the plats are rare for the right reasons. But DLC trophies still have their place as when I get 75/90 stars on Mirrors Edge those trophies will still be in my top 5 above Wipeout's and lets face it, we want our rarest trophies to be the hardest ones right? Because with no way to determine who has DLC and who doesn't it can be done one of two ways...and to me the new way makes more sense. I'd rather have DLC trophies slightly inaccurate than just all be put down as 'ultra rare' for the wrong reasons. The way it is currently works for most games and makes the system a lot more useful IMO. In fact the only thing that would make it better is if Base and DLC trophies were shown completely separate.

Edited April 14, 2013 by Aazesyne

[lporiginalg]

... But DLC trophies still have their place as when I get 75/90 stars on Mirrors Edge those trophies will still be in my top 5 ...

 

Unless Sly actually fixes them to work the same way in which case that Mirror's Edge trophy will prolly be like 25% common.

 

Of my non legacy DLC trophies my rarest was Gold Star from GTA4 which was around 1.00% and now it's like 5.33 or something so not a single DLC trophy stayed ultra rare for me, wonder if it did for anyone else.

Edited April 14, 2013 by lporiginalg

[JamesLovesTennis]

Unless Sly actually fixes them to work the same way in which case that Mirror's Edge trophy will prolly be like 25% common.

 

Of my non legacy DLC trophies my rarest was Gold Star from GTA4 which was around 1.00% and now it's like 5.33 or something so not a single DLC trophy stayed ultra rare for me, wonder if it did for anyone else.

 

I just checked again...those Mirrors Edge trophies are 1.20% and 1.09%. It's like I said...the new way works well for most DLC, not all. But if you think about it that makes sense for GTA4 as it's a popular game and I know that loads of people have the DLC (it was on a disc version right?) and I'm pretty sure not all of its trophies are hard?.

 

In fact, another point to make is that the way it was before my rarest trophies would be always be DLC, literally I would never have a base game trophy in my top 5. The way it is now, once I get those Mirrors Edge ones, it will include both base and DLC..which is how it should be.

 

BTW how do you quote a single section like that?

Edited April 14, 2013 by Aazesyne

[lporiginalg]

I just checked again...those Mirrors Edge trophies are 1.20% and 1.09%.

 

BTW how do you quote a single section like that?

 

Edit the quote before you post, just like real journalism

 

Not sure if you are really understanding what's going here but the Mirror's Edge trophies are so rare because they are from before the days when DLC trophies were handled the way they currently are. So those values have been completely unnaffected by the update. There's lots of other games like this as well, Resident Evil 5, Dante's Inferno, Bioshock...to name a few.

 

Those games still have loads of ultra rare DLC trophies but only because they are not updated. So you see, that Mirror's Edge trophy really SHOULD be like 25%, if we have a system where all DLC trophies are handled the same way. Currently we don't.

 

I know Uncharted 3 had lots of DLC trophies that were like 0.5% but skimming through the list now there is nothing below 10%. The day of the ultra rare dlc trophy is basically over, except on those older games.

[Dead Weight]

why not make a user rating system for trophies? similar to how only achievers can leave tips, only achievers can rate how difficult the trophy was for them to obtain it

Edited April 14, 2013 by A-Brawl3r

[JamesLovesTennis]

Edit the quote before you post, just like real journalism

 

    !!! lol

 

As for the rest...OK I'm with you now but I still stand by the new method though. I'd rather have my top 5 full of bass trophies and hard platinum's than random DLC one's that took no effort at all. But unless there was a way to determine who has the DLC and who doesn't, this is never going to be perfect

 

And yeah...apart from the treasure related ones, the U3 DLC trophies really used to bug me. So you can see why I love seeing my DOA5 plat at the top of my profile currently over dozens of those? But surely you would rather ghost recon plat than GTA4 DLC?

why not make a user rating system for trophies? similar to how only achievers can leave tips, only achievers can rate how difficult the trophy was for them to obtain it

 

This could work but the only problem is trolls...if you look on ps3trophies.org every game has a platinum/100% (for PSN games) difficulty poll, however each one has people voted on 1 and 10 just because they can. If enough people vote it does generally put it where it should be but then there's always people who vote for the wrong reasons like voting it as hard when it is just time consuming.

Edited April 14, 2013 by Aazesyne

[killerJAZZ420]

But surely you would rather ghost recon plat than GTA4 DLC?

 

I don't see how thats a good reason to limit DLCs worth to be honest.

Where it stands the new system does nothing but throw off the value of a trophy, People are gonna look at ones list and see some rare plats. Which is all well and good but theres plenty of hard DLC trophies that are so much work/skill to get compared to the plat. The problem with this new system is it plays on low level trophy counts and doesn't actually mean anything towards the number of people who work for said trophies. 

I can see some merit in the system in the sense that yes not everybody owes the DLC, but the way trophy list are made is that DLC and Core Game are one and the same. Its like that for a reason. All this system does is take away from that. It goes in the sense that PSNP is its own Trophy site. [Which in a way it is] but at the same time, the only people that should be able to throw value to trophies is the creators of said list and the people who manage to obtain them. 

 

This way is only adding clutter to a sites servers and making it more modern. If anything it comes down to a unneeded cosmetic change in my book. 

Edited April 15, 2013 by killerJAZZ420

[JamesLovesTennis]

I do get that many DLC trophies are just hard/time consuming and I do get that the new system is far from perfect. I just feel that the new way better justifies most cases because the way it was before most/all of the top 5 would be there for the wrong reasons. Notice the word MOST (cases). Just realized how weird both those words are lol.