How does the community want the "PS5 OS Autopop 'Glitch'" cheater reports to be handled?

[ShadowSkill]

First of all people are innocent by OS bugs,  but these garbage EZPZ affect the site,  leaderboard even gaming industry too much.  No one cares they speedruns on trash,  but once the door open this may also affect normal games and should have to handle these cases in grey area more carefully. If Sony fixs this soon and just put these innocent players to whitelist should be the best solution. 

Edited October 15, 2022 by ShadowSkill

[THEONE_EU1]

1 hour ago, TriadThunder-X said:

No, we might as well whitelist all other games that have had online services terminated as well. Why stop at just 2 games? Might as well allow CFW and save file usage for those games as well.

 

Out of all the disputes, i was under the assumption it was up to the account holder to hold responsibility of their account. 'Oh my pet goat abused the OS bug, please unflag'. Cant wait.

Let me educate you. This OS bug happens randomly while playing no one can do it on demand whenever they want. Also I'm surprised no one noticed this but the breakthrough games and I'm pretty sure also the journey/jumping games don't even create game saves when you play them. So its impossible to auto pop them using saves since there's no saves for those games. @enaysoft

Edited October 15, 2022 by THEONE_EU1

[SuperPatchZ7]

This remind me of the Black ops 1 and 2 flags where a hacker could autopop the trophies of other players in the lobby. There was method to avoid that those trophies were sync but very few people knew about it, or they discovered it after being flag, also there was a try to make a whitelist but in the end the flags remain.

 

IMO since you can prevent the ps5 autopop but some people may don't know how, is best to allow them to have several flags with the requirement of hiding the affected games.

[Nebnit]

9 minutes ago, enaysoft said:

 

You see at some points I find this whole conversation kind of confusing and often wonder what we are banning people for.

 

Are we banning people because of cheaters, or due to impossible timestamps (which isn't always due to cheating, but almost always is)

 

For example Scott Pilgrim on my list, if you look

 

https://psnprofiles.com/trophies/12138-scott-pilgrim-vs-the-world-the-game/enaysoft?order=date

 

One Man Army
Clear the game in single player on the “Supreme Master” difficulty setting.
1 week, 1 day, 12 hours (+6 days, 23 hours, 8 minutes)

 

Dirty Trick
Defeat an enemy by throwing an object at him while he’s already down.
1 week, 1 day, 12 hours (+1 second)

 

I complete the game on hardest difficulty setting and then during the ending sequence 1 second later I get a trophy for defeating an enemy while throwing an object at them.

This is impossible! This guy needs his impossible timestamps flagging right now!

 

Except what happened was the game crashed at the title screen, and awarded me random trophies for no reason, which I detail here in this thread and also film my screen where I show that I have a trophy pop, during the PS4 crash window lol.

 

 

Probably nobody is gonna get the same crash I did on Scott Pilgrim. Is that list allowed to stand because I have recorded evidence of the crash to prove I didn't cheat, or maybe it's not allowed because nobody else can replicate the issue? I still haven't completed Scott Pilgrim on the hardest setting but yet I have the trophy, is that unfair, does that make me a cheater? Or maybe it's Karma because on some other games in the past, a trophy glitched and so I had to do said thing twice.

 

We already have a ton of dodgy games allowed, such as Buzz TV Quiz on PS3 which we allow, because erm well I dunno, the game has a glitch that can't be fixed? But if we allow that, and my trophy list hasn't been flagged, why shouldn't we allow with dodgy lists on a PS5 OS bug. If we allow it on hardware, why not software? Rolling back to V1.00 of softare to exploit glitches, gameplay tweaks is allowed.

 

We already have known glitches on certain games not required to be hidden, so why do we have to do it here on PS5?

 

If a glitch like Buzz TV which can't easily be fixed is allowed, the hacked lobbies on Grand Theft Auto 5, surely those should be allowed as well? That's also software related.

 

Presumably, the whole point of banning cheaters is to be fair to other players who got those trophies legitimately, after all this is a contest and those that earn trophies faster than others are cheating and put genuine players at an advantage.

 

However we're at the point where, why even fucking bother, or care?

 

I'm serious.

For every dispute about GTA5 online hacked lobbies where a genuinely innocent user has had to hide a trophy list or be removed from the leaderboards on the game they worked hard on and due to no fault of their own.
 

Even if you did cheat, what advantage have you even gained when on average every single day there are 3 new EZPZ plats to just buy and complete within 10 minutes?

We're at the point where cheating takes too much time, it's just not efficient. This is like squabbling over breadcrumbs.

 

May as well just use your time buying EZPZ games and playing those for 10 minutes (which isn't cheating) and just keep paying your insurance premium of EZPZ pops to keep your lead and just hope your rivals give up paying before you.

 

And as time goes on, this is just going to get worse.

 

I know what I am saying contradicts what I was saying a few hours earlier. But I do wonder what constitutes cheating sometimes. It feels like there are a lot of exception to the rules.

 

Let the whitelisting begin!

 

 

This is also about respecting one's own gaming experience. Would you be able to have a good time with your hobby on a sick console that god knows what kind of issues will throw at you the next time you boot it up and start earning trophies? This is far from being worried about having a few glitched games here and there in all the years you've spent with playing on an otherwise stable system.

 

You would think that the people affected would recognize that it's for their own sake to do something about this. A trophy site shouldn't be the one that "forces" them to do that.

[visvoer18]

1 hour ago, StacFace92 said:

I think this is comparable to the hacked lobby situation on PS3 and they should be treated the same. In both cases, trophies autopop against your will. In both cases it's exploitable. In both cases, you can avoid it if you know about it beforehand.

 

Personally I think there's two potential ways forward, to be applied to both scenarios. 

 

(a) Don't flag them, on the basis that the person earning the trophies was playing normally as intended. Exceptions could be made if someone is found to be purposely exploiting the issue, but this would need to be added as a warning to the leaderboard rules to be fair.

 

(b) Update the leaderboard rules to specifically cover this issue and tell people exactly how to avoid it. Even then, I think there should be some sort of grace period & announcements on the site to give people time to learn of the update before flags start to stick. 

 

 

I haven't experienced it myself but I've seen a few people say it's caused by playing a game on PS5 before the trophy list has loaded, so you avoid it by waiting for the trophy list to show up on the PS5 menu before launching the game. 

 

yeah that doesnt work at least not consisently.

 

and you cnat compare it to hacked lobbies either  because that isnt guaranteed for the big trophy hunters that this will happen IS guaranteed.

also the hacked lobby sucks  but that is only a few games this can happen with every game

[BeautifulTorment]

I think as long as it isn't being used for anything other than trophy spam ezpz, then it's fine. 

[Deadly_Ha_Ha]

Hey good luck to the CRT if you change this system because you will be opening Pandora's Box on a whole bunch of other shit that cheaters, oops I mean poor affected innocents, will want you to change 

[VigilantCrow]

If it's a known system glitch and is avoidable, I see no reason to dismiss any game flag if the person has a forum account. 

Might be an argument for leniency if someone isn't participating in the forum and legitimately didn't have access to the information.

[Beyondthegrave07]

6 hours ago, AJ_-_808 said:

@enaysoft

@iXanon

@Beyondthegrave07

 

What prevents them from unhiding it a week/month/etc later after getting told to hide it the first time?  While requiring them to hide it sounds like a good middle ground, it can turn into a game of cat and mouse. 

 

2nd report gets flagged? 3rd? Who keeps track of that?

Plus, please correct me if I'm wrong, but once a flag is lifted, it can't be reapplied by non-crt, meaning it has to be manually reported and making it more of a job for crt.

 

I think it has to be all or nothing to keep it simple?

Idk why the CRT or B1rvine would have made this an option if this wasn't considered.

 

My assumption is that they are able to apply flags without having it count towards the 3 flag rule. However, if it's not,  then yeah, there's definitely an issue with that option, lol.

[ProfBambam55]

agree with the majority...no removals for stuff like this, please...the solution should be to demand for the os to be fixed, not punish people randomly affected by it...i might vote for a (ridiculously complicated to enforce) soft flag that takes the people affected off the fastest achievers stats for said game(s) if that could be implemented...*not going to happen*...

[Ashande]

Something that seems to keep getting lost in the shuffle is that, in all likelihood, this issue isn’t a “glitch” or a “bug.” It’s working as intended: keeping the Profile synched, avoiding corruption of the file(s) involved, and still awarding the trophies earned during that period. The fact that it’s causing an issue for a percent-of-a-percent of PS5 owners is not a concern. That doesn’t make Sony some Evil Overlord out to screw anyone, or a bunch of incompetent schmucks; it just means they didn’t foresee the situation of people piling thousands upon thousands of games on their Profile, many of which can be booted, completed and deleted in less time than it takes to compare a database, and didn’t account for the infinitesimally small (compared to the total install base) number of people who have a PS5, have huge Profiles, speedrun those sorts of titles by the bucketload, and who might be put in an unpleasant situation if the trophies appear “wrong.”

[ProfBambam55]

40 minutes ago, Ashande said:

this issue isn’t a “glitch” or a “bug.”...

 

they didn’t foresee the situation of people piling thousands upon thousands of games on their Profile, many of which can be booted, completed and deleted in less time than it takes to compare a database, and didn’t account for the infinitesimally small (compared to the total install base) number of people who have a PS5, have huge Profiles, speedrun those sorts of titles by the bucketload, and who might be put in an unpleasant situation if the trophies appear “wrong.”

you just said it wasn't a bug then gave a very specific definition of an unforeseeable bug...haha...

 

edit : curiosity side question: I noticed none of the crt voted... @B1rvinedo you know what crt members think of this issue?...I mean, end result is likely you guys dealing with it all, yes?...

Edited October 15, 2022 by ProfBambam55

[Jerry_Appleby]

 

As someone that despises EZPZ games and would like nothing better to see those types of games disappear, I'd have to say I also don't agree that an issue with a PS5 OS system should warrant a flag. It is unfair to punish people that are playing legit only to have something like that happen to them and turn them into a "cheater" in the eyes of the leaderboard.

 

However, I don't think an unlimited number of games is the right answer, so I put "Several" but without needing to hide them. 

I do have some remarks for the following things though:

 

11 hours ago, B1rvine said:

Potential issues to consider:

• The speedrun leaderboards may severely be impacted.
• This may eventually affect normal games as well.
• The issue is avoidable, if you know about it and how to avoid it.
• The glitch may be used as excuse for longer games, if only a few trophies are autopopped.

 

If someone is flagged in this manner, is there a way to remove them from the top 50 of the speedrun times? Like if someone has this happen to them on a POWGI game or something even longer, can they be removed from the top 50 fastest times but still not have a flag for impossible timestamps?

 

At the moment, this seems to only affect those extremely quick games, so for the time being, only apply this rule to those games. Or if it happens on a longer game, see my remark in the paragraph above.

 

How is this issue avoidable? I'm asking for my own self, I don't have a PS5 but I would be so incredibly angry if this happened to me after my 1000s of hours played! 

Maybe make a big stickied topic like in the FAQ section, similar to how you guys have one for hiding trophies and how to interpret what is/isn't cheating?

 

If this happens in longer games, I still wouldn't punish those people if we know it's from something like that. As long as their times aren't kept on the top 50 speedrun times, that's really the only thing I care about.

 

TLDR Version: Allow the people to keep their profiles without flags, but remove them from the top 50 speedrun times for any games affected.  

[Dark_Overlord]

I see people bringing up the GTA5 and BLOPS2 flags and saying it's the same, it's not.  One requires outside manipulation of the OS (CFW, saves etc) the other is the OS having a huge flaw.

[KondeBra]

I don't think this is much different than those who were flagged by participating in hacked game lobbies. It was also not their fault, it also was an error in the system, etc, etc....

 

If you are going to allow one because of what is fair or unfair, you have to allow the other. My vote is to keep being strict about those things, if not, the entire system will be flawed.

 

Also, afaik, this is not a common bug and happened with only one guy.

[GUDGER666]

I don't see how this is any different from using debug/dev menus, glitches etc. In fact all 3 of those are worse imo. I think it's kind of sad people actually go through a players games looking for this, i think its just pure jealousy and they are just trying to derail/slow them down.

 

For those quick easy games they shouldn't be whitelisted, especially the press X ones as it would surely take longer to cheat them than actually legitimately play them?. For games that take longer than 30 min it should be obvious if the OS thing has happened because all other games after should be fine? 

It's kinda daft legit top users are having to dispute this while clear and obvious cheats stay on the leaderboard.

[Nebnit]

5 hours ago, ProfBambam55 said:

edit : curiosity side question: I noticed none of the crt voted... @B1rvinedo you know what crt members think of this issue?...I mean, end result is likely you guys dealing with it all, yes?...

 

They are all for the extra workload plus the drama that comes with it.

Edited October 15, 2022 by Nebnit

[sepheroithisgod]

I don't fully understand the bug, but if it is somehow exploitable, unlimited seems like a really dangerous option. Considering this is just impacting shovelware, I don't think the affected party members would be greatly impacted by having to hide it (you waste a minute or so). That said, it's a legitimate bug, so I don't think a flag should be used.

Edited October 15, 2022 by sepheroithisgod

[ProfBambam55]

20 minutes ago, Nebnit said:

They are all for the extra workload plus the drama that comes with it.

sarcasm...cool...would actually be curious to hear their thoughts...perhaps it's a false assumption but it seems to be a crappy situation for them and how the site deals with the issue regardless of the outcome of this thread...

Edited October 15, 2022 by ProfBambam55

[Guest]

It's hilarious that supposedly with so many advanced anti CFW detection devices, the CRT is not able to tell a legitimate list from something malicious.

 

It seems that, at the end of the day, You rely on arbitrary "evidence", things that are supposed to make sense and "ought" to work in a certain way. You EXPECT things to work in a certain way, but due to numerous factors, they may for some inexplicable reason not work. Right?

 

So, in fact, there are no such "anti cheat" tools, right? hilarious. because due to your inability innocent people are seen as cheaters.

[Nebnit]

13 minutes ago, ProfBambam55 said:

sarcasm...cool...would actually be curious to hear their thoughts...perhaps it's a false assumption but it seems to be a crappy situation for them and how the site deals with the issue regardless of the outcome of this thread...

 

Actually, putting it up to a vote was genius. What happens after this will be the community's responsibility.

[HoorayForTyler]

3 hours ago, Deadly_Ha_Ha said:

Hey good luck to the CRT if you change this system because you will be opening Pandora's Box on a whole bunch of other shit that cheaters, oops I mean poor affected innocents, will want you to change 

To be fair, I think this particular situation is completely different than anything else that would and could be whitelisted.
 

If people truly believe it’ll spiral out of control, the least CRT could do is require the people who play these shovelware ezpz plats to:

 

1. Play completely offline, and/or 

2.  Use the built in recording software to show what happened (this shouldn’t be a big deal, since the games this seems to be affecting can be finished within minutes) after an OS glitch occurs. 
 

It’s kinda shit that this should even be a thing, but if there ends up being any kind of requirements for leniency, those would be it. And to be honest, it makes no sense to me that some users here truly believe this will negatively affect weeding out the actual cheaters still on the leaderboards. I don’t see that happening. 

[ProfBambam55]

18 minutes ago, Nebnit said:

 

Actually, putting it up to a vote was genius. What happens after this will be the community's responsibility.

not necessarily...polls on topics like this have been ignored before...I'm not really sure what the site backend looks like for the crt in terms of actions...it's possible they only have 2 options, keep flag and be off the lbs or unflag and stay on the lbs...this means that any resolution outside of those 2 options is not possible without the site owner making changes to what the crt is able to do which would make some of the options in the poll unviable...this is an assumption on my part though, so it could be false...

[Dark_Overlord]

45 minutes ago, kevao97 said:

It's hilarious that supposedly with so many advanced anti CFW detection devices, the CRT is not able to tell a legitimate list from something malicious.

 

It seems that, at the end of the day, You rely on arbitrary "evidence", things that are supposed to make sense and "ought" to work in a certain way. You EXPECT things to work in a certain way, but due to numerous factors, they may for some inexplicable reason not work. Right?

 

So, in fact, there are no such "anti cheat" tools, right? hilarious. because due to your inability innocent people are seen as cheaters.

 

I'm going to defend the CRT here, the issue is the rules set out on the site have been broken (impossible time stamps) so it is a valid flag according to the rules, however this new PS5 bug is a new issue and needs addressing, which is what the point of this thread is.

 

I've already said the flags shouldn't count at all.

[KimmysGotGame]

10 minutes ago, ProfBambam55 said:

not necessarily...polls on topics like this have been ignored before...I'm not really sure what the site backend looks like for the crt in terms of actions...it's possible they only have 2 options, keep flag and be off the lbs or unflag and stay on the lbs...this means that any resolution outside of those 2 options is not possible without the site owner making changes to what the crt is able to do which would make some of the options in the poll unviable...this is an assumption on my part though, so it could be false...

Polls like this have been effective when they were made by a staff member with the power to make the change. Both of the times the metric for dlc rarity was changed it was because the majority of people wanted the system to be changed. As of this post the overwhelming majority (80%) want the rules changed on this but disagree with the specifics of the change. Being open to a change in the rules has improved my opinion of the crt by quite a bit.