Questions about flag

[Zolkovo]

While I agree that any trophy earned through illegitimate means (i.e. taking advantage of external modders, using CFW, downloading foreign saves, abusing hacked lobbies, modded saves etc) should always remain flagged, I find it utterly ridiculous that certain people here use the age of a game to determine whether people should have already obtained the associated trophies by now. It's dumbfounding how incredibly short sighted that is, and you're essentially brushing aside a large majority of various demographics. There are always going to be new people, often young folk, venturing into the gaming hemisphere and by this logic should they refrain from playing brilliant older titles? What about veterans returning from a half decade spell in the war? The problem with statements like this is that they only really consider people in the same boat as them. The world is beautifully diverse, everyone's situation is unique. In the case of GTA V, if you have financial constraints this game is substantially cheaper on last-gen, not to mention a second hand PS3 will hardly set you back.

 

And yes it absolutely sucks if you happen to be an innocent blindly foraying into a hacked lobby, but that's just life. Think of it like this, we've all had our fair share of sour relationships (and if you haven't then you're a lucky bastard/ have a long way yet to go). Something that you invested a lot of time into but ended up fruitless. It'll do you no good to hang onto that bitterness, let it go and move on. But more importantly learn from it.

Back on-topic, I can see where OP is coming from in that despite wanting to use a modder's services, this particular trophy will still be earned as intended. I still think this should be frowned upon, since it's a grey area that will inevitably open up a whole new can of worms. Realistically, cheating is fairly subjective these days. Where do you draw the line? For example, exploiting in-game glitches to vastly accelerate trophy progress is allowed but obviously not how developers intend them to be earned. Boosting for online rank/level associated trophies is OK, but clearly not how the developers want it to be played.

 

At the end of the day, unless you're being sponsored you should only really be playing games for your own enjoyment and how you wish to do that is completely up to you.

 

Of course all of the above only applies to people who are completionists and/or care about trophies, which to be fair is probably most of the user-base on a trophy related website forum.

Edited December 27, 2017 by Zolkovo
Typo

[B1rvine]

10 hours ago, Elvick_ said:

Comparing apples and oranges.

This is 'hacking' to get a trophy to pop as it was intended to be earned. Not to pop just because you pressed a button to do so. I don't see why people have such a problem with this shit. You're still earning the trophy in the exact same way.

As another example if somebody could set up servers for shutdown games so online trophies were now earnable again, why is that bad? Because the company "intended" for us to never get the platinum again by shutting it off? Pfft, no, because they're cheap and don't care about the longevity of their titles unless they can resell them to us.

As long as somebody earns it the same way, even if it requires hacking to set up, who the hell cares? Earning =/= auto-popping.

And your other comment talking about how it's "Joining hacked multiplayer lobbies that auto-unlock trophies fits the GTA issue here" it's flat out wrong. Literally doesn't auto-unlock, so how does it fit the issue here? Oh, right... it doesn't.

 

Not comparing apples and oranges.   Not everyone is BFF's with their local hacker or modder.  The majority of people getting these are seeking out modders with CFW. Which is unfair to regular people who can't find a hacker.

 

Who cares? I care.  So do the 25+ people who liked my comments.  Sure, the rules don't specifically spell this example out.  We're not going to have a mile long list of rules for every single last example that's slightly different, when its generally defined that hackers assisting giving trophies in-game is against the rules.

 

You wanna know why we're even having this discussion?  Rockstar wouldn't have disabled this trophy if the hacking community hadn't F'd it first.  So hacking it again isn't the answer.  We shouldn't be trying to encourage and legitimize hacking.  We should be F'ing blowing up their houses with Orbital nukes, just like in GTA V heists.

 

 

Edited December 27, 2017 by B1rvine

[grimydawg___]

OK.  Talked to the Big Boss about this, and this doesn't warrant a flag.  OP is playing the game in a legit matter and earning other trophies just by playing the game.  For a flag to be warranted, there HAS to be at least three illegitimate trophies.  This doesn't seem to be the case.  So, @PianoBunny  you should be OK.  This isn't like a BO2 or anything like that, and you still have to play the game.

[ProfBambam55]

I don't like sharing convos like this but, in case anyone was wondering, here's what you can expect from r* as an answer on this topic:

https://imgur.com/gallery/YlYhb

Edited December 27, 2017 by ProfBambam55

[grimydawg___]

@ProfBambam55 huh LOL

[Baker]

6 minutes ago, grimydawg said:

 For a flag to be warranted, there HAS to be at least three illegitimate trophies.  This doesn't seem to be the case.

So fifa 09 real World winner, Black ops 2 big leagues and Army of two the mask trophy (don't know the name), and there are probably more, are now okay to earn too? Because by this logic it is. I don't support this.

[ProfBambam55]

3 minutes ago, grimydawg said:

@ProfBambam55 huh LOL

huh?...what?...is this that "spam" I've been hearing about?...haha...

[HardXDXtraga]

@ProfBambam55 That "we request you to please kill yourself" part ?

But what I got from this was, 'we don't care about your stupid trophy, please don't cheat or use hacks, if someone gives you free money or ups your rank please contact us so we can take that free money and you can buy shark cards, thank you for playing!'

[madbuk]

37 minutes ago, ProfBambam55 said:

I don't like sharing convos like this but, in case anyone was wondering, here's what you can expect from r* as an answer on this topic:

https://imgur.com/gallery/YlYhb

So you can kill yourself to stop the bounty and avoided the trophy being popped?

So we can't play the 'innocent victim' card here where they just happen into a lobby and the trophy pops, like modders who auto-level everyone to 100. People have to intentionally take advantage of the modders, and that is hardly being innocent.

[TheLakota]

44 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

Who cares? I care.  So do the 25+ people who liked my comments.

 

Ah, a good ole fashioned argumentum ad populum. Guess that means we can pack it up folks, thread's over. 

 

39 minutes ago, grimydawg said:

OK.  Talked to the Big Boss about this, and this doesn't warrant a flag.

 

Oops, never mind. Guess that dopamine spike was all for naught @B1rvine

[Sly Ripper]

Maybe I can add a new flagging reason which is for an unobtainable trophy and doesn't require 3 trophies to be selected

[HasBeenDeleted]

deleted

Edited April 9 by HellMoodCole

[B1rvine]

2 minutes ago, TheLakota said:

Oops, never mind.

 

The hacking community has just been legitimized with this decision.  

 

Look, I agree that when an online trophy becomes impossible to earn for whatever, it royally bites, and I do realize people can get this one by accident.  But the bottom line is, the ONLY way to get this is to benefit from someone using CFW.  Why are we encouraging the existence and use of CFW at all?  Yeah, it's probably always going to exist, lets not kid ourselves...  So should we just give up and say, "Oh well, the CFW users will be there but lets just let them use it this time only?"  If the decision went the other way, less people would actively use CFW on this site or attempt to benefit from it.  

[ProfBambam55]

I've spoken my mind on the topic many times but here it is again...the issue is that not everyone who plays is even aware that the trophy is unobtainable, i would even say a large majority...there are no guides on the net that mention that hackers are prevalent and can unlock trophies/features unintentionally and you'd pretty much have to be searching threads/forums like this to find that info...again, a minority, proven by the members vs gamers tracked stats on this site...currently, psnp is basically discouraging people from playing legit by flagging these kinds of trophies, forcing people to make disputes, branding them as cheaters (i.e. +1 to cheaters removed stat) and saying things like "you should've known...you have to hide the game now...you should've played in private lobbies only...it doesn't matter if you can prove you weren't trying to cheat you violated the leaderboards rules"...etc...meaning the message we are sending to legit gamers is "it is not ok to just play games as developers intended"...not cool...

 

this essentially leaves us with three choices:

 

keep flagging people and sending the message that playing normally is bad...in case it wasn't clear, a large majority are not ok with this if the whitelist poll is an accurate representation of our members...

 

don't flag at all allowing everyone to just go out and hack it devaluing the efforts of people who got it legit when it was obtainable and messing up the leaderboards...

 

or an alternative like a whitelist which involves reducing the penalty thereby acknowledging that our site thinks that situations like this suck but that we don't give the power to hackers to be able to ruin someone's trophy list...we protect our legit players because they are assets to our community...this category of cheating and potentially unintentionally merits a system of its own...

 

so how do we please all parties?...the whitelist thread has some excellent ideas...i'd suggest we start there...

Edited December 27, 2017 by ProfBambam55

[MMDE]

1 hour ago, grimydawg said:

OK.  Talked to the Big Boss about this, and this doesn't warrant a flag.  OP is playing the game in a legit matter and earning other trophies just by playing the game.  For a flag to be warranted, there HAS to be at least three illegitimate trophies.  This doesn't seem to be the case.  So, @PianoBunny  you should be OK.  This isn't like a BO2 or anything like that, and you still have to play the game.

 

Really, you can just ignore the 3 trophies rule. Sure, if like one trophy doesn't pop or something and it looks very strange from a cheating perspective etc, you'll get the flag lifted. But let's say they got the trophy for 5 and all (10) of a collectible at the same time, and especially if these are difficult to obtain and other trophies look iffy and we know people use save files for this, of course this is flaggable, even if only 1 or 2 trophies are obtained too fast or in wrong or whatever. Else, you may as well lift +50% of flags and not catch most of the cheaters.

34 minutes ago, ProfBambam55 said:

 

or an alternative like a whitelist which involves reducing the penalty thereby acknowledging that our site thinks that situations like this suck but that we don't give the power to hackers to be able to ruin someone's trophy list...we protect our legit players because they are assets to our community...this category of cheating and potentially unintentionally merits a system of its own...

 

so how do we please all parties?...the whitelist thread has some excellent ideas...i'd suggest we start there...

 

Depending of how the whitelist is implemented, I could get behind it. What you suggested is just let hacking be okay with some games. What I suggest doesn't put you on the leaderboards with the games you've been detected for. That includes country and world rank, and trophy count etc. Basically, just have it show on your profile without counting, AKA same as hiding it, but without needing to hide it.

 

I'm sure this doesn't please everyone, especially those who want them to count on your stats.

 

And you're not giving power to the hackers. Just keep away from them. Most of them just want to give you the trophies, and think they are cool and popular when they do it. You're giving them power by making it okay. As long as you can fix the issues after it happened or it's avoidable, it should be flagged. In the case of GTA5 on PS3, you can. Worst case, you can always hide the game. And someone who cares that much about their trophy list should do their homework.

Edited December 27, 2017 by MMDE

[ProfBambam55]

1 hour ago, MMDE said:

What you suggested is just let hacking be okay with some games.

 

I'm sure this doesn't please everyone, especially those who want them to count on your stats.

 

And you're not giving power to the hackers. Just keep away from them. Most of them just want to give you the trophies, and think they are cool and popular when they do it. You're giving them power by making it okay. As long as you can fix the issues after it happened or it's avoidable, it should be flagged. In the case of GTA5 on PS3, you can. Worst case, you can always hide the game. And someone who cares that much about their trophy list should do their homework.

I don't think I've ever suggested anything that makes hacking ok...i've done nothing but try to be a mediator in coming up with a solution that pleases everyone...you see, to me these kinds of trophies are exceptional and don't need black and white only solutions and opinions although they are essential in coming up with a solution...why?...because more people are unhappy with the current system than ones that are ok with it...

 

forget about words for a sec...here are the actions...the site flags you (negative action)...forces you to hide game (negative action)...potential dispute process that always yields a negative result and possibly pointless trophy list scrutinizing (negative action)...labels you as a cheater (negative action)...prevents you from joining gaming session for affected game (negative action)...this really sucks for those who still need trophies like blops 2 easter eggs/zombies, awp or fly the co-op in gta iv, or heist/rank/etc in gta v...so now our action is saying "use another site" all because of some random hacker...for the record, I also don't think I've ever said make it ok rather just treat it differently...

 

I like your idealistic mentally...we could reduce a lot of world crime with it like rape, muggings, theft, etc..."you should've known not to walk home after work you wouldn't have gotten (fill in the blank)...if you really cared you would've done your homework and avoided being (fill in the blank)...worst case you can always act like it never happened...we're certainly not going to acknowledge it...after all, it's possible you set it up"...blame the victim and prosecute them...haha...classic...i'm kind of surprised this is the stance a site like this wants to take rather than brainstorm a bit and try to come up with a solution...seems pretty lazy...

 

side note: I also think it's important that we bug the Devs and ask them to fix the problem...i've contacted them twice with regards to hackers affecting trophies for the ps3 version...i couldn't care less what their response is as long as the problem persists...what I do know is that I added a +1 to the list of people unsatisfied with their product...the more +1s we get, the more likely they are to fix it...i did the same when cut your teeth and wanted were unobtainable and they fixed them so you never know what it takes...if you have a problem with run like the wind becoming unobtainable, please be a +1 and not just whine about it in unrelated forums and threads...you can create an account and submit a ticket here:

https://support.rockstargames.com/hc/en-us/requests/new

 

Edited December 27, 2017 by ProfBambam55

[BlindMango]

18 hours ago, Kittet3 said:

Kinda off-topic, but not really too far off. Can we get the on-site guides edited to show that this trophy is unobtainable? One says it was unobtainable for a short while in April but that it's working again. If people trust these guides, they may not realize the trophy is obtainable and won't not synch the trophy if they get it. 

 

Message me if you see something like that and I can fix it  

[tlal_q8_22]

I agree, should be some game to be whitelited game trophy.

[HailHale81]

@MMDE I'm not buying into anything like you said. I just see this one trophy as the equivalent of PC people bringing back servers to games that developers shut down. Sure they're modding it to get it to work but they're not doing anything bad beyond that. This isn't auto popping something, or using save files or cfw changing time stamps. It's someone fixing a broken feature that the person still needs to earn the requirements to get the trophy. Like I said this is the only trophy I can think of out the billions of trophies that should get a pass. So many casual gamers don't know features like that were turned off and shouldn't be labeled a cheater after they joined this site to get more serious about collecting trophies.  If the trophy actually auto popped like the levels stuff then yeah I would agree with people of flagging it although I would like games like that to be whitelisted which seems to be only 4 games that need that I think. I just hate seeing people punished for a trophy like this but glad to hear there might be some changes coming

 

Oh and hope everyone had a happy holidays. Nothing but love to everyone on both sides of the discussion

 

Edited December 27, 2017 by HailHale81

[SnowxSakura]

1 hour ago, HailHale81 said:

@MMDE I'm not buying into anything like you said. I just see this one trophy as the equivalent of PC people bringing back servers to games that developers shut down. Sure they're modding it to get it to work but they're not doing anything bad beyond that. This isn't auto popping something, or using save files or cfw changing time stamps. It's someone fixing a broken feature that the person still needs to earn the requirements to get the trophy. Like I said this is the only trophy I can think of out the billions of trophies that should get a pass. So many casual gamers don't know features like that were turned off and shouldn't be labeled a cheater after they joined this site to get more serious about collecting trophies.  If the trophy actually auto popped like the levels stuff then yeah I would agree with people of flagging it although I would like games like that to be whitelisted which seems to be only 4 games that need that I think. I just hate seeing people punished for a trophy like this but glad to hear there might be some changes coming

 

Oh and hope everyone had a happy holidays. Nothing but love to everyone on both sides of the discussion

 

If we let this one get a pass, might as well let them all get a pass. Even if you yourself as the player does the requirement to unlock it, it still doesn't change the fact there is no legitimate means to start the process. Really going to set a slippery precedent with this, especially any cfw user can come in and claim someone put the bounty of their head and they didn't know. 

[B1rvine]

7 hours ago, ProfBambam55 said:

so how do we please all parties?...the whitelist thread has some excellent ideas...i'd suggest we start there...

 

As I said in my initial post, some form of a whitelist is okay.  That doesn't mean anyone earning this right now should be in the same pool as legit earners.

The 3 strike rule is also implemented for people affected by hackers etc who are truly innocent.

 

2 hours ago, HailHale81 said:

...they're not doing anything bad...

...It's someone fixing a broken feature that the person still needs...

 

They're not fixing a feature, they're exploiting a the system that was intentionally turned off, which was turned off because the hackers exploited it in the first place.

 

What about the people who can't find a hacker to initiate this process for them?  Thats the majority of people, by the way. 

 

What about the people who earn $100,000,000 during this "fix" to make other trophies easier, such as buying $8,000,000 of heist items?

 

What if Rockstar somehow did completely block the bounty exploit, but hackers found a way to auto-pop it instead, would you still say its valid because "its easy"?

 

What about other games that people use save file exploits, don't you "still need to beat the final level, etc" to earn the trophy? So, loading a save file and completing something is still earning it because it didn't auto pop, right? No!!!!  ( defeats the argument they're earning it still, since foul play is still required to initiate the process )

 

I pose these questions to everyone, not just whom I'm quoting.

 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2017 by B1rvine

[temp-910724]

17 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

 

As I said in my initial post, some form of a whitelist is okay.  That doesn't mean anyone earning this right now should be in the same pool as legit earners.

The 3 strike rule is also implemented for people affected by hackers etc who are truly innocent.

 

 

They're not fixing a feature, they're exploiting a the system that was intentionally turned off, which was turned off because the hackers exploited it in the first place.

Money is dropped on the floor all the time by hackers. Disabling this doesn't do anything. Though this doesn't help either side of the argument 

Quote

 

What about the people who can't find a hacker to initiate this process for them?  Thats the majority of people, by the way. 

Join public matches, there are quite a few hackers

Quote

What about the people who earn $100,000,000 during this "fix" to make other trophies easier, such as buying $8,000,000 of heist items?

Using items given to players by modders has been allowed for quite some time. I'm not really a fan of this rule

Quote

 

What if Rockstar somehow did completely block the bounty exploit, but hackers found a way to auto-pop it instead, would you still say its valid because "its easy"?

No. The BO2 trophy is an example of this. Much less support is gained for people wanting that trophy 

Quote

 

What about other games that people use save file exploits, don't you "still need to beat the final level, etc" to earn the trophy? So, loading a save file and playing for a fragment of what you need is earning that trophy? I mean that parts probably the hardest spot they just finished, right?  No!!!!  ( defeats the argument they're earning it still, since foul play is still required to initiate the process )

What? No, time is the only real factor in to getting a game complete. You know these 2 situations are completely different, for this trophy all of the requirements from the player have to be done. 

 

[B1rvine]

21 minutes ago, midgetstrawdog said:

1. Money is dropped on the floor all the time by hackers. Disabling this doesn't do anything. Though this doesn't help either side of the argument 

2. Join public matches, there are quite a few hackers

3. Using items given to players by modders has been allowed for quite some time. I'm not really a fan of this rule

4. No. The BO2 trophy is an example of this. Much less support is gained for people wanting that trophy 

5. What? No, time is the only real factor in to getting a game complete. You know these 2 situations are completely different, for this trophy all of the requirements from the player have to be done. 

 

 

1.  I'm arguing against the statement that hackers are "fixing" a broken bounty feature, as quoted by the guy I previously quoted.  The original reason bounties were disabled were to fix the original exploit hackers used to transfer money.  I'm not talking about the money here.  Stating hackers are "fixing" a feature that's "broken" is to earn a trophy legitimately is just false, since it was intentionally removed by rockstar.

 

2.  I am aware of the state of the public servers and did an analysis.  Statistics are statistics.  The majority of people earning this will need to actively seek a hacker out.

 

3.  My point specifically regarding earning money is that the bounty isn't only allowing players "just a work-around" as they're claiming.

 

4 & 5.  The people arguing for allowing this trophy are using every possible excuse to allow it, from "its super easy to earn" to "its not auto popped after a hacker gives you the ability to earn it legit."  My point is, saves are given by hackers too, and don't automatically pop trophies either, users still need to put work in it to earn it, right?  Yeah, its somewhat different, but since they're "not auto-popped" they should be allowed too, if we're going by the wording of their argument here.

 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2017 by B1rvine

[ProfBambam55]

50 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

As I said in my initial post, some form of a whitelist is okay.  That doesn't mean anyone earning this right now should be in the same pool as legit earners.

The 3 strike rule is also implemented for people affected by hackers etc who are truly innocent.

I agree that this should not be in a pool with legit gamers but it's an exceptional situation so bypassing the 3-strike rule is ideal...see previous post on reason why...the 2nd paragraph deals specifically with what message it sends to the legit gamer...

[HailHale81]

2 hours ago, B1rvine said:

What about the people who can't find a hacker to initiate this process for them?  Thats the majority of people, by the way. 

 

What about the people who earn $100,000,000 during this "fix" to make other trophies easier, such as buying $8,000,000 of heist items?

 

What if Rockstar somehow did completely block the bounty exploit, but hackers found a way to auto-pop it instead, would you still say its valid because "its easy"?

1. Regarding the auto pop I already said if it was auto pop I would agree with you but it isn't and you need to earn the trophy

 

2. Arguing about dropped money is idiotic. So we're going to give people shit who get dropped weapons in Demon Souls or Battlefield games cause they didn't earn the weapons legit? Or how about people having modded weapons in Dead Island and Borderland games? All of those things help you earn trophies faster not intended by the developers but it's not like people care about silly things such as those.

 

3. Who cares if some people found a hacker and had the bounty on them and some didn't. I can say the same for weapon drops in Demon Souls and Battlefield games. Some people don't have to play the games all the way and some do.

 

I just hope it's whitelisted so this stuff isn't even an argument. 

Edited December 28, 2017 by HailHale81