The Naughty Dog Agenda

[JiII-Valentine--]

Yes, Naughty Dog has a social justice agenda.

[Wavergray]

Saw the video a few weeks ago and it was good.

 

If Naughty Dog wants to have a agenda that fine, as long as they don't let their "agenda" compromise the story. 
For instance, in the newest TLOU: P2 trailer:

1. I really hope that in the middle of the dance, Ellie doesn't have a weird gameplay flashback.
2. Also when does the dance happen in the story? At the start? In the mid game? In the late game? Will it even be in the final game?
3. Why would people be scared of Ellie? Do they know she is the cure? 
4. How important is this character that Ellie is kissing? Is she the reason Ellie going on a killing spree?
5. Is there more to her character besides the fact that she is Ellie's maybe girlfriend?    

Edited July 21, 2018 by soultaker655

[BG_painter]

Thank you SO MUCH @Undead Wolf for posting this. We r on the same side of opinions here, so bro fist ?

Here is the reality: If you think there is no agenda here, you're way beyond help, and here is my point: the HEAD of naughty dog during many Uncharted series was Amy Henning, A WOMAN. She was forced out during the development of Uncharted 4, then Neil took over. Because this is such an INCLUSIVE industry women that doesn't hold certain views are not welcome and replaced by "male feminist allies" because of diversity/inclusivity. Get my point now? See the irony? See the BS?

http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/03/05/uncharted-ps4-writer-amy-hennig-leaves-naughty-dog

I know that u love the game, i know that many of u don't care for controversy, i know that many of you will play/buy the game, and that's fine, it's okay. But an agenda is an agenda, Call it by what it is. ?  U all have a nice day friends  

[grimydawg___]

Isn't a gaming company agenda for folks to buy their games  

[madbuk]

4 hours ago, nyonmyan said:

I'm not an expert on TLoU, but as far as I understand the girl has unique genetics that make her immune to zombie shrooms.

 

And the idea that the last hope of humanity is going to carpetmunch town instead of making kids is almost offensive to me.

Ellie can make kids and still be a lesbian.. Not that it matters because if she's the only one capable of having immune kids, they would still have to survive into adulthood to continue the lineage, which isnt likely in a world like TLoU.

 

There is really nothing to be outraged about here. Two girls kissing each other isnt something worth making a video about, nor is the removal of fat Drake. The Nadine argument is dumb too, would that scene be acceptable if you make her a man? Why cant women be depicted as powerful figures too?

[BlindMango]

Saw this video not too long ago and thought he explained everything in a really eloquent way.

 

I've been seeing that there is a point where a creative entity like a games developer, movie studio, comics company, and so on can shift focus away from putting 100% passion and focus on extremely important elements such as story, immersion, accuracy, characters, and design. They then potentially push all/most of that to the wayside to have a bizarre (and sometimes unexplainable) focus in their gameplay, marketing, interviews, and previews on odd things such as amputees and females on the frontlines in a World War II game (in a series that has built itself on immersion and realism) or the continuous need to point out that a main character isn't straight in an apocalyptic survival game.

 

This has the potential to continuously break immersion while playing the actual game and it also feels extremely odd to any person from any background playing the game, especially the more it's made to be a big deal and needlessly pointed out by the game itself. It's also extremely dangerous to the actual story and immersion (or sometimes accuracy) of the game if a developer breaks an important gameplay element of their game to put an over-elaborate focus on something else. But if you are a gamer that observes this and points this out, you will be called anything that ends in ~ist by a washed up games blogger with a blue checkmark on Twitter.

 

I have a fear that The Last of Us 2 has the potential to suffer from this, and well I hope to be wrong.

 

10 hours ago, Undead Wolf said:

Certain other forums would probably just shut this conversation down before it could occur

 

Luckily this forum isn't ResetEra or NeoGaf!  

 

Edited July 22, 2018 by BlindMango

[madbuk]

27 minutes ago, BG_painter said:

Thank you SO MUCH @Undead Wolf for posting this. We r on the same side of opinions here, so bro fist

Here is the reality: If you think there is no agenda here, you're way beyond help, and here is my point: the HEAD of naughty dog during many Uncharted series was Amy Henning, A WOMAN. She was forced out during the development of Uncharted 4, then Neil took over. Because this is such an INCLUSIVE industry women that doesn't hold certain views are not welcome and replaced by "male feminist allies" because of diversity/inclusivity. Get my point now? See the irony? See the BS?

http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/03/05/uncharted-ps4-writer-amy-hennig-leaves-naughty-dog

I know that u love the game, i know that many of u don't care for controversy, i know that many of you will play/buy the game, and that's fine, it's okay. But an agenda is an agenda, Call it by what it is.   U all have a nice day friends  

I mean if you actually do any kind of research into this, it's fairly obvious that Amy wasn't exactly steering the project along too well. She had a skeleton crew, which isn't really her fault, but they kept coming up with ideas that then didn't end up working well in gameplay, like having to wind up the grappling hook every time you try and use it. You can only miss so many deadlines before you have to go. The project needed saving quickly so they called Druckmann in because he had just delivered a game widely considered a masterpiece (though I hate it lol). It was going nowhere with Amy at the helm, which is a shame because while I find Uncharted to be pretty mediocre as an overall package, the games were at least competent until it fell apart with 4 (before Druckmann saved it)

[SkyMason]

7 minutes ago, BlindMango said:

Saw this video not too long ago and thought he explained everything in a really eloquent way.

 

There is a point where a creative entity like a games developer, movie studio, comics company, and so on can shift focus away from extremely important elements such as story, immersion, accuracy, characters, and design. They then potentially push all of that to the wayside to have a bizarre (and sometimes unexplainable) focus on odd things such as females on the frontlines in a World War II game or the continuous need to point out that a main character isn't straight in an apocalyptic survival game. This has the potential to continuously break immersion and feel extremely odd to any person from any background playing the game, especially the more it's made to be a big deal and needlessly pointed out by the game itself, and it's extremely dangerous to the actual story and immersion (or sometimes accuracy) of the game if a developer breaks an important gameplay element of their game to put an over-elaborate focus on something else.

 

I have a fear that The Last of Us 2 could suffer from this, and well I hope to be wrong.

 

It was just a single segment in the trailer (one of several so far) tbf, hardly "continuous". I think it's a matter of your own perspective, it can get in the way of storytelling for sure, but there are people who will go into the game with that mindset and decide that is trying to push an agenda regardless of how it comes across in the game, which is just as unhelpful. If no one else mentioned it I wouldn't have noticed it, not saying this kind of thing doesn't exist, but this is a bit overblown IMO.

[BG_painter]

9 minutes ago, madbuk said:

I mean if you actually do any kind of research into this, it's fairly obvious that Amy wasn't exactly steering the project along too well. She had a skeleton crew, which isn't really her fault, but they kept coming up with ideas that then didn't end up working well in gameplay, like having to wind up the grappling hook every time you try and use it. You can only miss so many deadlines before you have to go. The project needed saving quickly so they called Druckmann in because he had just delivered a game widely considered a masterpiece (though I hate it lol). It was going nowhere with Amy at the helm, which is a shame because while I find Uncharted to be pretty mediocre as an overall package, the games were at least competent until it fell apart with 4 (before Druckmann saved it)

Thank u, i'll google this. Still i fail to see how firing the creator of the whole franchise would "save the game". It seems there is more to this than we know...

[rdhight]

17 minutes ago, BlindMango said:

They then potentially push all of that to the wayside to have a bizarre (and sometimes unexplainable) focus on odd things....

 

This is a near-perfect summary of the many things I didn't like about Final Fantasy XV (for reasons that have nothing to do with sex or sexuality). It's very damaging when you fall victim to your own obsessions. You ask FFXV for more plot, more about the important things, and it stares back and offers you fishing or cooking or the hunter's guild or more car parts. It reminds me of those sci-fi books that suffer from "I just discovered Buddhism and let me tell you all about it" syndrome. You can't let your own preoccupations replace the core of what the game is about.

[ProfBambam55]

I realize this is probably a hot topic and that people are putting much effort into a plethora of rights and equality movements and that's great...but I find the whole situation and discussion silly...i've been in a situation similar to the following more than once in my lifetime and it's awkward every time...i can sum it up with the following : "hey, this is my friend (Dave)...we work together...he's gay"...*dave awkwardly looks at the floor...i look awkwardly at dave and extend a hand wondering why he would hang out with such an idiot...and the wanker introducing their acquaintance looks proud to have a gay friend*...it's all so f**king stupid...i dream of a day where the intro is just "hey this is my friend Dave...we work together"...and life goes on...hopefully this point in history allows us to move past all this bs and on to bigger, better things...maybe some people feel having this type of conversation is important...i'm looking forward to the day where it's not...

 

with regards to games : if it's fun, play it...if it's not, don't...if it offends you, good...if not, good...and life goes on again...

Edited July 22, 2018 by ProfBambam55

[Charizarzar]

5 hours ago, nyonmyan said:

I'm not an expert on TLoU, but as far as I understand the girl has unique genetics that make her immune to zombie shrooms.

 

And the idea that the last hope of humanity is going to carpetmunch town instead of making kids is almost offensive to me.

 

Why would you even want to bring kids into a world like that? 

[sheouttathere]

1 hour ago, grimydawg said:

Isn't a gaming company agenda for folks to buy their games  

Yup, which is why they try to appeal to every type of pocketbook. The bottom line is always the same no matter what route is taken to get there $$$$.

[AffectatiousDonk]

I think Naughty Dog show just enough to get the straights feeling inclusive and good about themselves but not enough to have to worry about alienating their wallets. What I don't understand is that with the average gaming demographic - well that actually spending significant money - (Male/30s) why doesn't any company that opens the door to a topic actually follow through and say something. Presenting something and then backing away is merely lip service, a poor reactionary attempt to capture the true progressive nature of many other artform mediums. 

 

Perhaps sitting on the fence is more lucrative although it doesn't show much respect for the intelligence and emotional depth of a gamer now does it ...........

[RedRodriguez87]

2 hours ago, BG_painter said:

Here is the reality: If you think there is no agenda here, you're way beyond help, and here is my point: the HEAD of naughty dog during many Uncharted series was Amy Henning, A WOMAN. She was forced out during the development of Uncharted 4, then Neil took over. Because this is such an INCLUSIVE industry women that doesn't hold certain views are not welcome and replaced by "male feminist allies" because of diversity/inclusivity. Get my point now? See the irony? See the BS?

http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/03/05/uncharted-ps4-writer-amy-hennig-leaves-naughty-dog

 

I don't. Mostly because the article you linked hadn't mentioned ANY of that. What WERE her views on diversity and inclusivity? Would you had preferred if she had played the gender card? 

Edited July 22, 2018 by RedRodriguez87

[SuperSaiyan3985]

Doesn’t attack anyone? This bitch blocked me simply because I was speaking my mind (I was supporting him on Patreon BTW).

[BG_painter]

35 minutes ago, RedRodriguez87 said:

 

I don't. Mostly because the article you linked hadn't mentioned ANY of that. What WERE her views on diversity and inclusivity? Would you had preferred if she had played the gender card? 

From the article:
" Sources claim Hennig was “forced out” by The Last of Us’ Neil Druckmann and Bruce Straley, and explained that Uncharted may now come under their control. "

Now that i read my post from before it is a little ambiguous. When i said " Because this is such an INCLUSIVE industry women that doesn't hold certain views are not welcome and replaced by "male feminist allies" because of diversity/inclusivity. Get my point now? See the irony? See the BS? " I was being very sarcastic
U can visit Amy's twitter and see she is not fanatical about social justice, it's just a normal person. I don't think the gender card should be played in any situation.

[Kittens Are Awesome]

Anita Sarkeesian is a piece of shit human being. Not sure why anybody gives her a voice at all. Her words carry as much weight as a fart bubble as far as I'm concerned. I think pissing on her is a waste of piss. Her, and people like her, are what's making the liberal left seem like pieces of shit. There was a time when the liberal left were the good guys. Now, because of people like her, and of late, Jessica Price, being a feminist liberal is just as bad as being a gun toting, Trump voting, conservative, redneck...not to say Clinton would have been better...just saying.

 

So yea, to @Undead Wolf, since you sympathize with Anita and feel for her, you instantly go on the naught list in my book. I'm sure you don't give a shit though...and that's ok.

 

Also, if you are finding conspiracy theories in video games, you aren't playing enough video games. Maybe, just maybe, you need another hobby to take up more spare time that you have. Maybe carpentry, for example. Welding? Auto repair? Almost anything is healthier than nit picking out conspiracy theories. 

[Redgrave]

15 minutes ago, Phil said:

So yea, to @Undead Wolf, since you sympathize with Anita and feel for her, you instantly go on the naught list in my book. I'm sure you don't give a shit though...and that's ok.

 

Where did you see that he sympathized with her? He said that he found Neil's treatment of her where he acts like she's some sort of hero worthy of respect to be disturbing.

[Platinum_Vice]

4 hours ago, NathanielJohn said:

 

Bill's sexuality wasn't highlighted because he was only in one or two chapters of the game and his sexuality was not relevant to the game or any important character's development. Just like Henry's and David's sexualities weren't explored -- they just weren't relevant, so why would they be? Who cares?

 

Comparing that to Ellie, the game's main character, is just silly. Showing her kiss someone is not "highlighting her sexuality as a defining characteristic". It's watching a main character be a human being. A main character that we're supposed to be interested in getting to know (and whose sexuality was introduced in the DLC for TLoU 1, by the way).

 

Nathan kissed Elena dozens of times throughout the Uncharted games. Does that make his sexuality a defining characteristic of him? Or is it only when gay people kiss that it becomes defining and not OK?

 

A trailer should highlight the primary themes of an upcoming product. The E3 trailer revolves around two things: gameplay in combat and Ellie's relationship with a woman in a commune-type setting.

 

When it's the pivotal part of a trailer advertising the upcoming product, then yes, it's a defining selling point. If I remembef correctly, they kiss, causing a flashback, and then the viewer is shown the kiss again (am I remembering that right?)

 

I have no problem with Ellie being gay. I have no problem with anyone being gay. That should not be up for discussion and the OP stated that it isn't the topic at hand. Ellie's sexuality though is clearly a major aspect of what ND are advertising their game to focus around. That was the point I was making.

 

This is opposed to TLOU1, which, in my eyes, can be summed up briefly as a parent-esque relationship between an adult man and a teenage woman who are emotionally and physically trying to survive in a post-apocalyptic environment. Further, Ellie and Nathan's relationship was developed around his inability to settle down to a normal life, which, along with his brother's relationship, is the actual driving force of the story. His relationship just exists.

 

Left Behind revolved around Ellie's relationship. Clear distinction. Again, I didn't have an issue with it, but it's a defining characteristic of the character as portrayed by ND.

 

I don't understand the confusion...?

[DamagingRob]

2 hours ago, Charizarzar said:

Why would you even want to bring kids into a world like that? 

So the human race should just lay down and die? One of the longest running types of these stories, The Walking Dead, has never shown that to be the case. If there's no future or point to anything, why fight?

 

That's not to say I agree with the statement you quoted completely, though. There's no reason every female in the apocalypse has to procreate (unless there's only one). And who's to say her kids would be immune, if that's what he was getting at? If that were the case, why was the only solution for a cure to cut her open? 

 

Anyways, I don't care what sexual orientation Ellie has. I just hope the game lives up to the greatness of its predecessor. 

[Kittens Are Awesome]

42 minutes ago, Redgrave said:

 

Where did you see that he sympathized with her? He said that he found Neil's treatment of her where he acts like she's some sort of hero worthy of respect to be disturbing.

 

I guess I misunderstood what he was talking about.

 

@Undead Wolf if that's correct, I retract you from the naughty list. To be fair, other than like a few people, my naughty list is forgotten pretty fast.

[AJ_Radio]

6 hours ago, Carol said:

An example of this is something that is mentioned in the video: the role of Nadine as a villain in Uncharted 4. If you played the game, you know that when you’re trying to fight her, no matter how many buttons you press, nothing happens and Drake always ends up defeated. Why? Well, Nadine is a girl and it’s politically and socially incorrect to have to beat a woman in a game. And I can even agree with this! But then don’t add a female villain/boss to your game, with certain parts of this game that only have the appearance of having gameplay, but that are merely cinematic, because there’s a character you aren’t supposed to beat! This is ridiculous and absurd! Drake can beat extremely powerful enemies (the infamous brutes); there’s no way he can’t beat a woman, no matter how strong she is! It’s good that you have these concerns, but then don’t add female bosses to your game!

 

About the characters’ sexual orientation, I couldn’t care less about Ellie, Nadine or Chloe being lesbians. “The Last of Us” is a masterpiece and “Uncharted: The Lost Legacy” is an extremely fun and light game, that I loved playing. As a gamer, that’s all I care about.

 

Naughty Dog made Nadine to be a badass in Uncharted 4, but I feel this falls along the old tradition of simply not beating women. Our society looks highly down upon men who beat women for any particular reason, and I guess this is no different in video games even though they are purely entertainment.

 

Unfortunately in Uncharted: The Lost Legacy they just made Nadine to be a self absorbed, uptight bitch. Chloe Frasier also had her faults, because we didn't really know her story until well into the game, where they're trying to escape the clutches of a madman bent on finding a certain valuable treasure.

 

The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt wasn't afraid to let us see women dying. You can even fight a sorceress at one point if you so choose, and another woman sacrifices herself to save the world from complete destruction.

 

Lara Croft, Nadine, Chloe Frasier, Aloy, Ellie, Ciri, this generation is rather fixated on creating strong but nearly indestructible female figures.

 

The whole lesbian angle I couldn't care less about. If anything I think there should be video games focused on a gay man's marriage, since I've yet to see anything that puts priority in that.

[BG_painter]

1 hour ago, Spaz said:

 

Naughty Dog made Nadine to be a badass in Uncharted 4, but I feel this falls along the old tradition of simply not beating women. Our society looks highly down upon men who beat women for any particular reason, and I guess this is no different in video games even though they are purely entertainment.

 

Unfortunately in Uncharted: The Lost Legacy they just made Nadine to be a self absorbed, uptight bitch. Chloe Frasier also had her faults, because we didn't really know her story until well into the game, where they're trying to escape the clutches of a madman bent on finding a certain valuable treasure.

 

The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt wasn't afraid to let us see women dying. You can even fight a sorceress at one point if you so choose, and another woman sacrifices herself to save the world from complete destruction.

 

Lara Croft, Nadine, Chloe Frasier, Aloy, Ellie, Ciri, this generation is rather fixated on creating strong but nearly indestructible female figures.

 

The whole lesbian angle I couldn't care less about. If anything I think there should be video games focused on a gay man's marriage, since I've yet to see anything that puts priority in that.

Thank you so much for this post. You made me think and rethink many things regarding all sorts of  representation.  You also made me change my mind about a few things ..
It's always good to have a healthy conversation where u can express yourself and learn from others

Edited July 22, 2018 by BG_painter

[ImplyingYouCare]

14 hours ago, nyonmyan said:

 

It sounds offensive because you don't live in apocalyptic zombie nightmare.

 

This is exactly the problem with the Western games. They make all sorts of settings and then they write characters like those still live in the present day San Francisco.

I'm playing high medieval fantasy and a tranny comes out of the closet while a gay guy tries to hit on me. I'm playing far future sci-fi and a tranny comes out of the closet while a gay guy tries to hit on me. Now we have this stuff in zombie apocalypse setting too.

And there's nothing else to their settings. Just add some antagonist (ancient evil, evil aliens, evil cultists) and the game is done.

 

Do you think that gay and transgender people just did not exist until right now and this is some sort of modern idea that's being filtered onto everything? Because history is filled with gay and trans people from all over the world and from very different kinds of societies, some which were far more open than I think you realize. 

 

Medieval people absolutely were gay. King James was openly gay and used passages from the bible to justify his sexuality to the church. The Greeks and the Romans very open about homosexuality and it was constantly displayed in their art and writing. The Indian people had a class called the Hijra who were made up of transgender, intersex, or gender nonconforming people. The Jewish people recognized six different genders including special ones for trans and intersex people. The Native Americans celebrated same-sex marriage and a gender called Two-Spirit, which is still recognized and used by native people today.

 

Game devs using these concepts in their games, whether they're historical, modern, or futuristic, is not bullshit and it's certainly not all they have in their work. I've never once played a game that held sexuality or gender as it's main focus, it's always a short side piece that deals with romance options that hardly even effect the plot (Like Mass Effect). Hell, there's literally only two video games with intersex characters in them, so it's not like the market is drowning in LGBTQIA focused games. 

 

Gay people are going to exist, apocalypse or not. And you know what, if they do it right this adds some solid conflict and tension to the story. People wanting Ellie to possibly pass on her immunity genes vs her own goals to be with the girl she loves and support her community in other ways. The first game had her nearly die for the possibility of a cure, and the ending is entirely about how she didn't owe them that. She doesn't owe them children for the possibility of a future cure either. Living for yourself and your own goals is not offensive. 

Edited July 22, 2018 by ImplyingYouCare
I misread something in the game and thought there were other immune humans besides Ellie, but there aren't. Thank you for the correction, that sentence was removed.