The Difficulty Archives

[Hitman_Spinksy1]

14 minutes ago, Ich1994-1994 said:

Just to make clear. I wouldn’t consider Rayman origins a 8/10. probably 6ish in my opinion.

 

With Argument number 2 absolutely nothing can ever be called difficult. Of corse there is a learning curve and it gets easier the longer you practice. Also the first post says prior experience should not be taken into account. So „once you’ve learnt one you’ve learnt them all“ is not to be evaluated here

Hard games are still going to mess you up no matter how much you practice. Aint no1 playing SMB or the like with a banana lmao. Or are we going to class to first few bosses/hours of a game now? Then by your argument, everything is difficult. 

[CNaai]

4 hours ago, LegendExeter said:

 

I actually had to come back to this post.  I seen Rayman Origins and was like what???  I then had to dig deep as it was my 4th platinum.  

 

I found the chest levels where it's running away from you to be the most annoying thing about the game.  The time trials at first were a little challenging but after you knock a few out they aren't that bad.  My reaction is maybe a 6 or 7, I'm surprised the guide creator suggested an 8.  Yet I'm open to hear discussion on this.

 

This is an interesting perspective and opinion.   While it does make it easier it still requires someone to basically be willing to carry you.  I've not played any souls games so I don't know how charitable that player base is in doing such a favor.

 

Yet with the exploit possible...should they be removed, great point. 

No idea who said Rayman is a 8, but he said he was playing in the Vita and the all i can is in the Vita is a bit harder than in the ps4. Specially the diamond cups in Rayman Legends because there is not a lot of active players, so the less players there is, the better you have to do for the diamond cups, but definitely not a 8/10

6 hours ago, LegendExeter said:

 

Explain the cuphead immortality glitch or link to it.  I've never heard of it.

 

I agree with Rockband 2, that's just ridiculous and I've heard of that trophy before.

My bad, i tried to search it but apparently there isn't or i can't find it... But i was very sure i saw something like that somewhere..🤔 

On 9/21/2023 at 10:58 PM, PunisherXD2006 said:

Hi all!

Me, @Enzo_0684, @Destructor-8, @Prometheous101 and @CatLord732 have been working on compiling a list of every game that is a difficulty of 8/10 or over, in aim to have all the hard games on PlayStation compiled into one neat and organised list!

 

Along with the actual list, we also have two sub-sections; one for the games that are rated an 8/10+ through means of guides but are generally known as lower than that, and another one for games that we didn't manage to gather enough information on and need "discussion", essentially meaning we need opinions on the game (and with a good reason/description!).

This sheet was originally made with only guide ratings in mind, although we have quickly realised that using community estimates by experience hunters would be the best way to go. and this is why we need YOU, as a community. We want to make this list as good, accurate and big as it can be in a way that can make the general community happy.

Obviously, difficulty is a topic that nobody can agree on, due to how people view difficulty in games differently, so I'm gonna have to clear up a few things as to how we want people to rate them for this list:

• DO NOT take prior experience into account. try as much as you can to judge a game's difficulty based on someone who doesn't have a lot of experience in that genre. For example, I want to say I had 0 Hack N' Slash experience before trying DMC5 (in terms of games of that difficulty and in that genre) and I rated the game a 6 or 7/10 due to the amount of exploits.
• PLEASE try and take mentality and enjoyment out of the core difficulty rating. This leads to a lot of "Personal Ratings" and so people start arguing. We are trying to be as respectful as possible, and so don't worry if the list doesn't have the same difficulty as what you specifically think, it's not the end of the world. Try and give your best perception of why a game is as hard or harder than other games on that list.
• This is an obvious one, but I got to say it anyway. If you give really inaccurate ratings like "Trackmania Turbo is a 3/10" with 0 viable reason to back it up, your comment will be ignored by the editors of the sheet. Again, we want to make as accurate estimates as possible, so trying to be funny with sarcastic comments isn't gonna lead anywhere.
• RNG will usually not be factored into the difficulty, although this will be dependent on the game. Games that completely rely on the difficulty to be raised by RNG (example: Crypt of the Necrodancer, Nuclear Throne, Binding Of Isaac etc.) will be allowed to have it factor, but other games where RNG is just a roadblock that doesn't require you to be at a higher level of skill (example: Surgeon Sim, specifically ambulance and corridor missions) shouldn't have RNG factored in, as it won't be a pure reflection of its difficulty, especially compared to other games of the difficulty.
• GRIND DOES NOT EQUAL DIFFICULTY. I've seen a few people on forums say games are really hard because they take a long time to complete, even if the skill required isn't necessarily a lot. Therefore, try and refrain from suggesting said games. Obviously, if the game is mainly grind but does have actual difficulty that could push the game into the 8/10+ range, feel free to suggest it as it will be counted.

 

I'm REALLY hoping everyone will be respectful towards this and add suggestions accordingly. The spreadsheet link is below, so everyone is free to view the list itself and what is on it.

 

If you wish to make any suggestions about games that could be on the list or games that shouldn't be there, feel free to post down below with what that game should be and why.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AZ7d7L6pp3R4YyYvdyN9QC2E7wJhWDhdR84D-zu-pjY/edit?usp=sharing

I'm curious, why is bo4 in the sheet?

 

It allows you to coop to make things easier and you can get carried literally almost in everything through the game

Edited September 25, 2023 by CNaai

[Ich1994-1994]

21 minutes ago, Hitman_Spinksy1 said:

Hard games are still going to mess you up no matter how much you practice. Aint no1 playing SMB or the like with a banana lmao. Or are we going to class to first few bosses/hours of a game now? Then by your argument, everything is difficult. 

No they are not. Look at fastest achiever for super meat boy. It’s in the range of a few h. Why? Because someone practiced. The only difference between a difficult and an easy game is how much practice it takes until it gets „easy“. 
and no if we only class the first few bosses/hours a big majority of games is still very easy

 

10 minutes ago, CNaai said:

No idea who said Rayman is a 8, but he said he was playing in the Vita and the all i can is in the Vita is a bit harder than in the ps4. Specially the diamond cups in Rayman Legends because there is not a lot of active players, so the less players there is, the better you have to do for the diamond cups, but definitely not a 8/10

My bad, i tried to search it but apparently there isn't or i can't find it... But i was very sure i saw something like that somewhere..🤔 

i brought up Rayman origins. And again I think it’s NOT 8/10 but lower. Just the guide says 8/10 (causing controversy in the comments of it)

[Laxus]

Correction. This one was my fault, i should had explained myself better. The japanese Version of Koihime Enbu is not Koihime Enbu Ryo Rai Rai but the previous version of that game. It is his own game and not the japanese version of Ryo Rai Rai.

 

 

[Mellenthin]

9 hours ago, Reinachii- said:

Xcom 2 should be removed, as you can not only save scum, but also use glitch to negate your opponent even having a turn...

 

I completley forgot about that; thanks for bringing it up. Since the list mentions Raiden IV as an 8 with the pause method, it's only fair to do the same for XCOM 2 - the main difference being that the latter completley loses any resemblance of difficulty.

[Terra]

I’d argue C&C Red Alert 3 would be an 8/10 difficulty for those not familiar with RTS games. My guide rates it as 8/10 but PST has it at 7

[Reinachii-]

Stardew Valley pre coop and save scum patch was a solid 9.

 

We count those?

Edited September 25, 2023 by Reinachii-

[bdias10]

8 hours ago, esstee11 said:

 

I'm no elite but I have some hard plats, not tons, but I love a challenge. And I gotta say Downwell is one of the very very few games I had to give up on, it fully beat me. I cant say that about many games. And I hate giving up on games so I didnt rush to accepting defeat! I kept going back to it but I just couldnt do it, so I agree with the other guy who had hell with it. That's my 2 cents, and showing me imo it probably is a 8+ difficulty. Or yea maybe it is just a specific skillset that I just dont possess. 🤷‍♂️

 

Was there any other peoples input on Oultlast 2 who have played it? Just me and one other guy agreeing on the guide rating 8 (PS I dont think it's fair to compare everything to mein leben, especially if you havent played both)

 

I have hustle kings 100% and my personal rating would be 5/10. And I think that is the only snooker/pool game I've played. With a boost group of 4 people the majority becomes a zero effort breeze. The 5/10 coming from just a couple random misc trophies like a full break or something, nothing was at all bad me n my mates thought.

The trophies are so rare because 1 it was free and 2 because most people cba to boost the million trophy cuz it's kinda time consuming despite having to do absolutely nothing other than pass money to your friends.

Trust me you can do it, I rage quited as well and if wasn't for one of my friends on psn i would probably come back a lot later, the guy really pushed me and motivated me saying that game is all about trying until you succeed and there is no pattern and consistency whatsoever. And that changed everything because i stop caring and just kept going and started reaching the boss constantly , once you do one time you know you can do it , then it is all about holding your nerves and having some luck with the pick ups, easier said than done lol, but if you did SMB you can do that 

Edited September 25, 2023 by bdias10

[LegendExeter]

3 hours ago, Reinachii- said:

Stardew Valley pre coop and save scum patch was a solid 9.

 

We count those?

 

This is a good question as well.  However I don't think it would be counted.  I mean if there is a patch that has now made the game easier, then that solid 9 is no longer there.

 

It would now depend on how easy the game is since the addition of the patch.

[esstee11]

3 hours ago, bdias10 said:

Trust me you can do it, I rage quited as well and if wasn't for one of my friends on psn i would probably come back a lot later, the guy really pushed me and motivated me saying that game is all about trying until you succeed and there is no pattern and consistency whatsoever. And that changed everything because i stop caring and just kept going and started reaching the boss constantly , once you do one time you know you can do it , then it is all about holding your nerves and having some luck with the pick ups, easier said than done lol, but if you did SMB you can do that 

 

🙂 that's the thing SMB is about a sequence of ultra precision patterns which is how my meticulous brain works, Downwell was just like wild chance chaos that I couldnt get my nerves or head around 😂 but ok cheers you've motivated me to redownload it and give it another crack 😆👍

[Manilu-08]

Uncharted Nathan Drake Collection on Brutal difficulty without cheats

[Bumperklever]

Well fall guys doesnt seem to count (in the it didnt make it list) but the reasoning is that later modes made infallible more achieveable. Before squad mode, I would say this is a 9/10. After squad mode it dropped to a 6/10, but now you have modes that can drop it to a trivial 4/10 or something.

 

In that sense, all games with major exploits or changes, I feel like should be considered to doesn't make the cut list.

 

One of the updates considered medal of honour warfighter. It has the same concept as wolfenstein 2, die and you restart except that the exploit in that game kills all the difficulty that game potentionally has. Every dummy can earn that plat.

[Reinachii-]

5 minutes ago, Manilu-08 said:

Uncharted Nathan Drake Collection on Brutal difficulty without cheats

although annoying, it isn't hard. perhaps a fair 6. 

[Konycjusz]

On 9/21/2023 at 11:34 PM, PunisherXD2006 said:

Thank you for the suggestion!

We do actually have Wolfenstein 2 under the "games that didn't make it" section, due how there are constant updates on what the safest and most consistent routes for the Mein Leben Trophy. We've been told the game now goes as low as a 6/10 depending on how safe and consistent your route is on the game, so we have decided not to put it in. If more people start saying that it should be in the main list then we will happily move it there though

I think it should be on the list. The game is hard as hell, I did it on PC and some day I will do it on console.
It SHOULD NOT matter that much that there are guides making it a little easier. This is still 3-8h (depends on how slow you want to move and how careful) constant max focus and utilizes strategies and good skillset. 
Going with the PEOPLE ARE MAKING IT EASIER BECAUSE OF GUIDES approach we can say the same about Outlast series for example.
 

[LegendExeter]

17 hours ago, Laxus-0 said:

 

Yeah no i get exactly what you are talking about.  For Wolfenstein 2, i can't speak for that. What i can say however is that using a guide and a script are two different things here. Even if they result is the same outcome. The thing with the script is it eliminates the difficulty for the jump rope trophy without putting any kind of effort. The guide only gives you direction and how to make things easier for you.... As for glitches there is still a difference....

 

 

I agree with this, video guides are not the end all, you still have to perform them.

29 minutes ago, Konycjusz said:

I think it should be on the list. The game is hard as hell, I did it on PC and some day I will do it on console.
It SHOULD NOT matter that much that there are guides making it a little easier. This is still 3-8h (depends on how slow you want to move and how careful) constant max focus and utilizes strategies and good skillset. 
Going with the PEOPLE ARE MAKING IT EASIER BECAUSE OF GUIDES approach we can say the same about Outlast series for example.
 

 

I agree with this, I think Wolf II should be on the list, a 3 to 8 hour nerve wracking playthrough where one mistake kills your entire game is hard even with video guides.

51 minutes ago, Manilu-08 said:

Uncharted Nathan Drake Collection on Brutal difficulty without cheats

 

If the Cheats are in the game, than the exploit "is possible", they are basing this off of available glitches, scripts, in game secrets, etc. 

 

If a player chooses not to use the cheats, that's the player making it more difficult.

 

Much like someone trying to play a game blindfolded, you are only making it harder on yourself.

[xZoneHunter]

Earth defense force ratings doesn't make too much sense.

- 5 shouldn't be on the list with the strategies in place (for example, You can AFK armor farm)

- 2025 is listed but 4.1 isn't. 4.1 is the same game but it has more missions & more difficult enemies.

- EDF 2 should be added/replace the above games. This game is pretty difficult to complete solo and requires actual strategy even in co-op. Coupled with the fact you can't efficiently armor or weapon farm without a 2nd vita adds to the difficulty level.

 

Generally the games aren't too difficult, as there are really good strategies or OP weapons available but EDF 2 is the hardest in the series IMO.

[esstee11]

48 minutes ago, LegendExeter said:

 

I agree with this, video guides are not the end all, you still have to perform them.

 

I agree with this, I think Wolf II should be on the list, a 3 to 8 hour nerve wracking playthrough where one mistake kills your entire game is hard even with video guides.

 

I agree with this too. Having a difficult 8+ games list and then choosing to not put one of the most talked about notorious hard games on the list just seems daft. It is most likely a 8.5/10. For anyone who isnt pro. So what if there are lots of videos on YouTube, there are lots of videos of most big games, there are videos of peoples successful TEW akumu runs online did seeing how other people did it help me, no not particularly I still struggled like a bitch through it for 145 hours.

A hard game is a hard game. Regardless of what tip a friend might give you, or video of someone completing it there is. The main thing that will take away from a hard games status is if a cheese method or glitch/exploit is discovered, not just someone saying this is a successful route. 

 

Dont be so mean thread creators put the classic Wolfy 2 back on the list 😆 it does deserve to be there 🙂

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by esstee11

[Darkette]

Guitar Hero: Metallica should definitely be in there if Van Halen and Smash Hits are. Creeping Death requires nearly an FC which is brutal, especially for beginners.

 

I don’t agree with most of this list however, and I don’t want to echo what has already been said. There’s no real metric being used here, it just seems any game with a hint of difficulty gets bumped up to an 8 for the sake of being on the list. 

[PunisherXD]

@Konycjusz @LegendExeter @esstee11We already added Wolfenstein 2 back at an 8/10 during one of our change-logs as we (mainly myself) had some bias towards the more recent, longer routes making things much easier, hence its prior removal, however this isn't exactly the case from what it looks like. The fact that routes have gotten better is the truth though, they are as consistent as ever from what I've looked at myself, especially when compared to the route I used when I did Mein Leben (3 hour route from 4-5 years ago).
 

@xZoneHunterThank you for the clarification. We had no clue what the EDF games actually are like in terms of their difficulty, just heard that they are difficult and really grindy, and estimates online have said that too. If you could give us a rating of EDF2 that would be appreciated, as you said yourself its the hardest in the series and the rest aren't as hard as they are made to be. Guide does say it's a 7/10 but maybe that's underrated. 

@DarketteThank you for the suggestion regarding GH Metallica, we were going to add a few of the unobtainable GH games with a red tag so people know the online is shut down, but we never got the chance to. However, if you could explain what you exactly mean by "any game with a hint of difficulty gets bumped up to an 8" it would be great, because the whole point of the removed games section is for those games, and it feels like we've moved quite a few games there by now. And again, at the end of the day the point of this spreadsheet is to have a database of all the hard games that are 8/10 or over, even if some aren't exactly that hard but are listed as that by guides. the main goal we want to see this achieve is bring light to some of the lesser known games that are difficult rather than just being nit-picky on what is what difficulty. Whilst that's fun to discuss, it's just an added bonus for the sake of a better insight on game difficulty. Hope you understand

Also just a reminder that we've decided on judging games based on how hard they would be if someone was to use most exploits available, hence the removal of popular games like Hollow Knight and Celeste. Also from what I'm currently reading, seems like people are suggesting games that were hard before. Those wouldn't count unfortunately as they aren't that difficult anymore, are they? 😅

We're probably gonna be looking into making another changelog to keep ourselves updated with the suggestions in the past few days, so be on the lookout for that

[Darkette]

8 minutes ago, PunisherXD2006 said:

@DarketteThank you for the suggestion regarding GH Metallica, we were going to add a few of the unobtainable GH games with a red tag so people know the online is shut down, but we never got the chance to. However, if you could explain what you exactly mean by "any game with a hint of difficulty gets bumped up to an 8" it would be great, because the whole point of the removed games section is for those games, and it feels like we've moved quite a few games there by now. And again, at the end of the day the point of this spreadsheet is to have a database of all the hard games that are 8/10 or over, even if some aren't exactly that hard but are listed as that by guides. the main goal we want to see this achieve is bring light to some of the lesser known games that are difficult rather than just being nit-picky on what is what difficulty. Whilst that's fun to discuss, it's just an added bonus for the sake of a better insight on game difficulty. Hope you understand

 

There’s quite a few I don’t agree with by a long shot, and there’s a few that can potentially be argued with being pushed to an 8. Crash 4 and Wolf 2 I see are being argued a lot, I don’t believe these should be pushed to an 8 since most of the difficulty would stem from bad routing. Since there’s lots of videos and guides, it’s more about learning strategies separately and using it in the runs. Actually pulling off the routing isn’t worthy of an 8 in my opinion.

 

Games that the makers of the spreadsheet haven’t played shouldn’t be stuck on there based on the guide estimate imo. People should mention in here with a good reason as to why it should be added unless it’s something obvious, like crypt.

 

Giana Sisters - a 6 at most, the game is very lenient with most of the time attacks and the deathless runs are very doable. The PS4 version is even easier since the boss levels are their own level and not part of the final level of each world. 

 

Star Trek Online - a mindless game. I mentioned in the guide comments how the difficulty shouldn’t be remotely close to what they put. The rating is an entire “Grind = Difficulty” mindset. The game shouldn’t even go beyond a 3/10 imo. With appropriate ship upgrades you won’t have any trouble with space encounters. 

 

There’s a hefty amount of other games I could debate about being on this list but I don’t have the time at the moment.

 

[PunisherXD]

13 minutes ago, Darkette said:

 

There’s quite a few I don’t agree with by a long shot, and there’s a few that can potentially be argued with being pushed to an 8. Crash 4 and Wolf 2 I see are being argued a lot, I don’t believe these should be pushed to an 8 since most of the difficulty would stem from bad routing. Since there’s lots of videos and guides, it’s more about learning strategies separately and using it in the runs. Actually pulling off the routing isn’t worthy of an 8 in my opinion.

 

Games that the makers of the spreadsheet haven’t played shouldn’t be stuck on there based on the guide estimate imo. People should mention in here with a good reason as to why it should be added unless it’s something obvious, like crypt.

 

Giana Sisters - a 6 at most, the game is very lenient with most of the time attacks and the deathless runs are very doable. The PS4 version is even easier since the boss levels are their own level and not part of the final level of each world. 

 

Star Trek Online - a mindless game. I mentioned in the guide comments how the difficulty shouldn’t be remotely close to what they put. The rating is an entire “Grind = Difficulty” mindset. The game shouldn’t even go beyond a 3/10 imo. With appropriate ship upgrades you won’t have any trouble with space encounters. 

 

There’s a hefty amount of other games I could debate about being on this list but I don’t have the time at the moment.

 

Yeah Crash 4 and Wolf 2 I originally didn't agree with either, although it seems like others think that they deserve their respective spots on it, so we've moved them there. I know some people who think Wolf 2 is a 6, others who think it's a 9-10, same with Crash 4, so keeping it on 8 as the "entry-level" hard games sounds like the best choice to make without causing too many arguments.

Yeah it is mainly our fault for using guide estimates as a base for most of the games on the sheet, however we would not have near as many games on it without said guides, and we figured that we'd rather have a big list of games that we can change later, than wait for people to speak up on certain games for possibly a very long time. Not to mention, the discussion section is already large enough as it is 😂

Also thank you for the heads up on those two games, we will change those when we make our next changelog. Again we didn't know of these being overrated but this is the exact reason why we made the forum in the first place, so people who have done these games can speak up.

Yeah I can imagine you're pretty busy, so I appreciate your time

[Laxus]

@Darkette I agree with you for as why a game should be included with solid reasoning but at the end of the day the difficulty isn't just determined in how we see the difficulty for said games. At least not just as an individual that is.

 

Edit: Actually i am starting to think that maybe there should be a second list. A list with games which are in constant debate....

 

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Laxus-0

[Milktastrophe]

23 minutes ago, Darkette said:

 

Star Trek Online - a mindless game. I mentioned in the guide comments how the difficulty shouldn’t be remotely close to what they put. The rating is an entire “Grind = Difficulty” mindset. The game shouldn’t even go beyond a 3/10 imo. With appropriate ship upgrades you won’t have any trouble with space encounters. 

 

Star Trek Online's on here? I missed that earlier, agree it's only 3/10 difficulty. It has a couple extremely annoying time gated RNG trophies, that's why it takes so long. Those plus many of the trophies being unobtainable for years is why the rarity is so low, there's not even a hint of difficulty in this game.

[ExistentialSolid]

2 hours ago, Darkette said:

I don’t agree with most of this list however, and I don’t want to echo what has already been said. There’s no real metric being used here, it just seems any game with a hint of difficulty gets bumped up to an 8 for the sake of being on the list. 

I disagree with parts of this list too, but applying any "real metric" towards difficulty isn't possible. All we'll ever have are arbitrary personal metrics that we flail around and batter against one another. My 8/10 will never be your 8/10. That said, I think we have diametrically opposed ideas on where this list should be heading.

My biggest issue with the list, especially when it was first posted, is one of inclusivity. I feel like too much was being excluded to push against the "mainstream" perception of difficulty and establish some sort of new standard. Excluding games like DMC5, Wolfenstein II, and Crash 4, despite popular opinion, felt like a deliberately edgy, even elitist, take. I'd rather see a list where the majority is represented rather than a small handful of people at the top getting to decide what "is" or "isn't" difficult. That said, there's something these list curators are doing that I really appreciate...

They're listening to feedback.

I'm glad to see Wolfenstein II and Crash 4 already being reinstated on the list and I hope this list's curators will continue listening to feedback and adjusting the list accordingly. If I were to throw a few of my own opinions out there on games that need discussion:

- I agree with Crash 4 and Wolf II earning an 8+ (though I'd argue both deserve 9+)
- Even after following "that guide", I felt that DMC5 was an 8+ and should feature on this list.
- I'd vote for Downwell being an 8+.
- I'm in the minority, but Might No. 9's challenges push it well into 8/10 territory for me.
- THPS1+2 felt like an 8+.
- Despite the guide author's recommendation, I felt like Olli Olli World deserved an 8 since it felt considerably more difficult (to me) than Olli Olli 2 which is on here as an 8. 
- Dariusburst: CS's hitless QUZ route felt like a clear 10 (for me anyway). 9 seems a little low.
- Even though I haven't played it, I'd vouch for Outlast II being at least an 8 (looks closer to a 9).

Best of luck with the list! 

Edited September 25, 2023 by ExistentialSolid

[Deadly_Ha_Ha]

@Mellenthin if I've got every trophy in Vermintide 2 except for the last three weave trophies how much more difficult would you say the game gets from here? I'm conflicted in terms of how difficult I'd say this game has been thus far but I'm probably fine saying it deserves to be on this list. It feels like a lot of the "difficulty" is finding people who are good enough to play consistently enough to practice and execute on the above average amount of content there is in the 100% list. But if we're only talking about the plat then I don't think this was even an 8/10 honestly. I respect your thoughts though since you're a serious Warhammer trophy hunter 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Deadly_Ha_Ha